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Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

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Black Cloud
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Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Black Cloud » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:14 pm

I mean this in all seriousness. This discussion has probably happened more than any other throughout the years, but I've never really shared my opinion.

To me, it seems like Dreamstrike is barbaric if it could be applied to the age of computer science and game developers. It makes me feel like we still practice the custom of sacrifice, and do so every so often to please the gods. Who in their right mind would destroy a player or user who spends, for the majority of us, YEARS developing our characters/account? Regardless of how risky and in-character you can justify the reasoning, by the end of it the consequences are completely out of character and on top of that, it's devastating. For a small cheap thrill, you risk a huge impact on not just the controller of the character, but the community as a whole.

I am not talking about any specific occurrence. No matter how big the battle, how vicious the rivalry, or how tainted the hatred one could have for another.. to take one person out of the game for ANY reason other than them being a burden on the community and disobeying the laws, it's just the dumbest part of Underlight to me, and I don't think anybody can change my opinion on that. I've been playing on and off for almost two decades now, and I haven't ever felt any different. Dreamstrike is an art that has not been thought out properly, and is only around because it's so provocative and offensive.

In almost every case that has happened, it has left a big long and stinky shit-streak on the morals of the community. It's kinda sad that it's the only edge that the developers could come up with in the past 20 years. It doesn't matter if I'm in on my own Dreamstrike, it's gonna negatively effect almost everyone I know. When I think about players losing all their hard work and time, it makes me cringe. When I think about how dreamers always end up leaving the game because of some stupid RP to kill someone, I can't help but wonder what the fuck you guys are doing!

It's literally in-character player termination, because we all know the person is not dead. They just can't play with us anymore, and that's not fun at all. That's all.
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Dakkoth
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Dakkoth » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:14 pm

Make DreamStrike more interesting then. Make it so that it Permasphere the dreamer. They can still dream and they can still roleplay but their character is a giant fuzzball. And then players can attempt to resurrect them with their SoulEssence. Adds more fun to the roleplay. Gives the game a sort of huge punishment but can still be overcome. Neither of which would be easy to do and thus is the point.

Mike
~Dakkoth
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Dina
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Dina » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:43 am

It definitely does affect others, not just the person being struck. I was so pissed when Harkyn was struck that I was ready to leave the game (everyone saw my meltdown). Luckily I had friends that kept me from uninstalling the game. I know I can't control when things happen in game, but it was at such a difficult time for me. My husbands bday was the day before the striking happened and I was not doing ok in the first place. Then this happened? I was throwing the F BOMB out every second I think. It was more about the whole RP of the Union going to shit instantly. Then of course not getting any answers. I had friends help me calm down and it took a long time. THAT is what kept me in game. Some think because Dina got Ruler. No, I have no problem leaving the game, no matter what she gets lol. What I do have from this game is good friends and I thank them for what they did for me. Love you guys, you know who you are!
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Koi-Cricket
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Koi-Cricket » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:28 pm

Thank you guys so much for the feedback and opinions, but mostly for doing it in a positive way.

Discussion regarding Dreamstrike on the GM side of things, is now happening.
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Yuritau
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Yuritau » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:32 pm

Black Cloud wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:14 pm
I mean this in all seriousness. This discussion has probably happened more than any other throughout the years, but I've never really shared my opinion.

To me, it seems like Dreamstrike is barbaric if it could be applied to the age of computer science and game developers. It makes me feel like we still practice the custom of sacrifice, and do so every so often to please the gods. Who in their right mind would destroy a player or user who spends, for the majority of us, YEARS developing our characters/account? Regardless of how risky and in-character you can justify the reasoning, by the end of it the consequences are completely out of character and on top of that, it's devastating. For a small cheap thrill, you risk a huge impact on not just the controller of the character, but the community as a whole.

I am not talking about any specific occurrence. No matter how big the battle, how vicious the rivalry, or how tainted the hatred one could have for another.. to take one person out of the game for ANY reason other than them being a burden on the community and disobeying the laws, it's just the dumbest part of Underlight to me, and I don't think anybody can change my opinion on that. I've been playing on and off for almost two decades now, and I haven't ever felt any different. Dreamstrike is an art that has not been thought out properly, and is only around because it's so provocative and offensive.

In almost every case that has happened, it has left a big long and stinky shit-streak on the morals of the community. It's kinda sad that it's the only edge that the developers could come up with in the past 20 years. It doesn't matter if I'm in on my own Dreamstrike, it's gonna negatively effect almost everyone I know. When I think about players losing all their hard work and time, it makes me cringe. When I think about how dreamers always end up leaving the game because of some stupid RP to kill someone, I can't help but wonder what the fuck you guys are doing!

It's literally in-character player termination, because we all know the person is not dead. They just can't play with us anymore, and that's not fun at all. That's all.
Pretty much perfect expression of my thoughts on the subject.
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Oklof » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:56 pm

Having said all that. Without dreamstrike, the consequences to actions are significantly lessened. Whatever form the new dreamstrike could take, they should be significant to be a major deterrent.
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OfF KiLTeR
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by OfF KiLTeR » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:50 am

I am going to chime in from a different side of the argument. I believe the permanence of dreamstrike is integral to the game. The finality of Dreamstrike is necessary, otherwise we're just recycling over and over.

There is a lot of work that goes into each character, but the strength of this game should not be wrapped up in the idea that a bunch of immortal players are running around doing things that are meaningless. Dreamstrike is the greatest underlying tension in the city and diminishing it just softens consequences.

I believe that when the game was new, it should have been used more. Now the knee jerk reaction is to cry foul when a commonly known game mechanic that has always been there is being used.

Moreover, players can be revived - something I disagree with. Going back to old PnP games, you die - fill out a new character sheet and begin anew. Dreamstrike should be real consequence when fighting those GM characters who are known to have it. Otherwise you've got skewed risk/reward ratio.
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by fr3y » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:46 am

It's infinitely more of a plot device than the dream's equivalent to a handgun.
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Tentacle
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Tentacle » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:19 am

Underlight, is not your typical game. Underlight, requires the unconventional to truly shine.

We should be invested in characters, even those we do not control. We should feel an impact when a character is no longer a part of our collective party. Underlight, requires consequences. Within the game of Underlight we are constructing our own Game of Thrones. Our characters and their legacy have power. Heroes and Villians can die, but the legacy they create is immortal. We have all of us experienced the frustration of encountering those who have little or no ability to apply suspension of disbelief. Further removing any and all consequence erodes the foundation of a living world Underlight was built on.
"I'm not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it."- Niccolo Machiavelli
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Oklof » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:20 pm

I can see dreamstrike being a tool that would do one of two things. Either prevent reentry for a month, or allow earlier re entry at a cost of 2 orbits per 7 days earlier reentry.


But with significant and absolutely enforced roleplayed out caveat. I believe 'anyone' who deserves being dreamstruck is a good enough roleplayer to perform it seamlessly. It's a very simple thing. Due to the shock of dreamstrike, the dreamer cannot remember the events of the day it happened on. To a point of having it time stamped in the log, "Please forget 24 hours from 'suchandsuch' time and date."


Then allow methods of mitigation. Like for example, use of prime energies to return the dreamer back. Ofcourse the price in strength should be significant enough to make the strategy of bankrupting the house and having it close a viability.

Return ability to regain permanent dreamsoul with RPPs to mitigate lesser consequence.
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Black Cloud
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Black Cloud » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:24 pm

I totally get the other side of the argument. Since Dreamstrike is a real thing, we've learned to accept it. If there is a GM with the art, we don't have a choice but to adjust our behavior. We've seen it in action and felt it's effects. I've been stuck in a room with a striker and I knew it was a threat and made it out alive. I'm not against these suspenseful moments as I think they're crucial and enhance a whole different emotion tied to that memory. I just think that we can create these moments without the threat of being killed off completely. Yeah, Underlight is different, but it's not because of Dreamstrike. And if a GM character has the art and there HAS to be a consequence, then we can easily choose not to interact with those GMs. The players who want to take the risk just to live on the edge and do so. I mean, sounds like a voluntary gamble because it has it's limits. A GM can't strike a person in sanctuary. Alright, so strikes aren't permanent.. you usually have to roleplay the return of someone, right? What if nobody RPs the return of a dreamer haha.. like nah. Would they magically come back or are they doomed because nobody loves them? The whole idea is bizarre the more I think of it.

So, I won't just criticize the art. I'll throw a suggestion out there. The art of Dreamstrike could strike off a sphere or two along with any arts that came at the spheres lost. This would allow the art to be used more often, and although it wouldn't be an 'end all' act, dreamers would still be fearful of taking the loss. This way players would at least have a chance of recovering. Right now Cloud is 6th sphere. If I was struck and knocked down to 4th sphere, it changes the game for me. The dual focus dreamers would lose their dual status and have to get it back. What if it was random?

Now, even after all of this I understand that Dreamstrike still has it's place. How else would be defeat foes and experience great losses? Surely there's a balance, and I don't mean to go hard on the GM team. Kudos to all of you, I don't say it enough.
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Raas
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Raas » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:24 pm

[Redacted to be nice]
Ultimately this is an identity issue. The GM's need to decide what type of game Underlight is, and then stick to it with some consistency.
[Redacted to be nice]
~Ra'as
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Koi-Cricket
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Koi-Cricket » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:49 pm

Dakkoth wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:14 pm
Make DreamStrike more interesting then. Make it so that it Permasphere the dreamer. They can still dream and they can still roleplay but their character is a giant fuzzball. And then players can attempt to resurrect them with their SoulEssence. Adds more fun to the roleplay. Gives the game a sort of huge punishment but can still be overcome. Neither of which would be easy to do and thus is the point.

Mike
~Dakkoth
This is an interesting idea, Mike!
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Lu Chaos
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Lu Chaos » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:29 pm

I'll go back to an idea I liked a long time ago.

DreamStrike should be something that can only be used on dreamers who obtain the art themselves.
You gain DreamStrike? Well now you can be struck. Death should still be present in game. We can't take away death, but I think that seeing as dreamers are nowadays more so leaning towards not having their characters die after hard work? And wanting to take away from the immersion of UL.. I think it should have a highlander effect. Those who receive the mark of strike can now be killed and they can now be killed. Thus if you don't want to die? Stay away from learning the art. Don't gain the mark. Creates a new path of roleplay too because what if someone forced the mark on someone? Haha. Just alot to play off of . DreamStrike shouldn't disappear. At all.
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Raas
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Re: Dreamstrike: A form of sacrifice?

Post by Raas » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:07 pm

I generally agree both with Lu's points, and Dakkoth's recommendation (though maybe that's a separate art?).
~Ra'as
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