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Ward Improvement

This is a game for roleplayers. We want your ideas how how to build the better game. Post your suggestions here.
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coltdorsey
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Ward Improvement

Post by coltdorsey »

I'd like to bring attention to improving Ward in some way against Blend and even shatter. Ward is a defining art for the Gatekeeper focus which has nearly become useless with the high sphere dreamers in our player community now. For the dreamer wars, most the population is either Soulmasters or Dreamseeers, where blend works all too well to allow passage. To compliment the groundwork being laid in character, I'd like to open the topic up out here looking for feedback in improving Ward against blend and shatter.

The primary thought on the table is:
1) Getting ward to absorb the reflective properties from the Warder's reflect, giving the ward a chance to repel shatter evokes and the blend duration (remove the duration if repelled successfully?) that is equal to the Warder's Reflect level. There are thoughts of requiring an amulet present in pack to bind the reflective properties to the ward. Process is something like: Evoke amulet(1 will), evoke reflect(40 will), evoke ward(20 will) -- Ward consumes reflect effect and amumlet when ward enters pack briefly, then ward is applied on valid portal.

Although in this approach the warder would be required to have reflect, I feel this adds a proper balance to not overpowering Ward and it gives the younger dreamers another reason to aspire to Sixth sphere, which is very feasible. Additionally, this could open the door to the use of complementary arts, where a process of arts used together produce a result of its own instead of creating a new art entirely.

An alternate method of not using Reflect in this process was proposed, though the details escape me.

There are other Gatekeeper art improvements being discussed, however they do not directly relate to improving Ward against Blend of Shatter and so for this discussion, I have left them out.

What are your thoughts?
Sidas
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Sidas »

Eros wrote:In my view, a Gatekeeper is already the most powerful focus at spheres 6 and higher. Is there really a need to make them even stronger? Ward may be one of the gatekeeper's defining abilities, but Blend is one of Dreamseer's defining abilities and can already be completely countered by double or pocket wards. I do not see the need for this change.
+1

Blend lasts for 10s + 10s per plateau and has a pretty hefty evoke time. It only works through one ward before it expires. It's already pretty well balanced with Ward, imo. This change would destroy that dynamic and make Gatekeepers very OP.
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Venom
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Venom »

Sidas wrote:
Eros wrote:In my view, a Gatekeeper is already the most powerful focus at spheres 6 and higher. Is there really a need to make them even stronger? Ward may be one of the gatekeeper's defining abilities, but Blend is one of Dreamseer's defining abilities and can already be completely countered by double or pocket wards. I do not see the need for this change.
+1

Blend lasts for 10s + 10s per plateau and has a pretty hefty evoke time. It only works through one ward before it expires. It's already pretty well balanced with Ward, imo. This change would destroy that dynamic and make Gatekeepers very OP.

I agree 100%. I see no reason to improve Ward. So Ward has a few weaknesses, big deal so does -SOME- of the other focus arts. Majority of focus abilities have counters for other focus abilities. Should I bring up FateSenders? A lot of people run around with Free Action, Resist Fear, and Protection up. Unless a FateSender has a SoulMaster around to Abjure they are pretty crippled. They DO however have other arts they can use, RazorWind, Firestorm, etc.. sometimes they can catch people off guard without protections on. Checks and balances.... That's the whole point of the multiple focuses.

Improving Ward would only make Blend absolutely useless. I don't understand why this is constantly being brought up. Also what's to prevent another GateKeeper from simply shattering a Ward altogether? Modifying Blend or Shatter defeats the whole purpose of those two arts. Not to mention that Blend costs a crapton of Insight to invoke.

Now improving Poison or curse.... THAT I can understand. Because it needs to be strengthen a bit as most folks can just mediate or restore through poison. In terms of Curse there would be an actual use for the stupid Identify Curse ability that Dreamseers have. Since you can either Remove the curse using Purify or have a Dreamseer check to see if you are cursed.

Ward is perfectly fine the way it is now.

This is my opinion on the matter.
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Krodoc
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Krodoc »

Here's why I don't use Ward all that much.

1) HC and Order go to war. We set up a ward trap for HC. Oh wait...Here comes Ghaz(7th) or Thunder(7th) who can shatter the entire room before you can fire three chakrams.

2) I see Kailoth(6th) genning in Caudal. I go and set up a ward trap. I chase him into said ward trap. Oh wait... He blended through.

The only people that get stuck in ward traps are the people who aren't 6th sphere yet, and most times ward traps are used in larger scale battles, where someone's bound to be around to Shatter quickly. GateKeepers are a strong focus, I'll give you that, and I also agree that things like Poison or Curse should hold more weight as far as arts go. Right now, they're negligible. I had posted up a suggestion for a sort of portal delay to avoid portal hopping, and I saw several responses saying Ward is the answer. Ward isn't the answer when it's so easily negated.

Personally, I'd like to see the ability for GKs to double ward themselves. It would double the cost, but actually be effective. Also, high GKs could still shatter the hell out of it quickly. They'd just have to evoke the art twice which at least makes it somewhat of a mild hassle.


And on the FateSender argument, I've seen what happens when the FS arts are no longer affected by the protective arts. The FS focus becomes the most broken (OP) thing I've ever seen in the game. Ever.

Perhaps since FS need to work with an SM to be effective, then the Seers should have an art to block Blend from working on a ward, so that GKs have to work with Seers. What do you think of this?
Sidas
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Sidas »

It sounds like the better option is to slow down the shatter evoke. :)
Dina

Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Dina »

I would agree with Krodoc and Sidas. I do think Seers should be the only focus able to go through a ward easily. That is one of their focus perks. I agree that the evoke should not be super fast...even if level 99.
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Gerroz
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Gerroz »

I'm with Sidas. Shatter is WAY too fast as it is now.
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Venom
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Venom »

Krodoc wrote:Here's why I don't use Ward all that much.

1) HC and Order go to war. We set up a ward trap for HC. Oh wait...Here comes Ghaz(7th) or Thunder(7th) who can shatter the entire room before you can fire three chakrams.

2) I see Kailoth(6th) genning in Caudal. I go and set up a ward trap. I chase him into said ward trap. Oh wait... He blended through.

The only people that get stuck in ward traps are the people who aren't 6th sphere yet, and most times ward traps are used in larger scale battles, where someone's bound to be around to Shatter quickly. GateKeepers are a strong focus, I'll give you that, and I also agree that things like Poison or Curse should hold more weight as far as arts go. Right now, they're negligible. I had posted up a suggestion for a sort of portal delay to avoid portal hopping, and I saw several responses saying Ward is the answer. Ward isn't the answer when it's so easily negated.

Personally, I'd like to see the ability for GKs to double ward themselves. It would double the cost, but actually be effective. Also, high GKs could still shatter the hell out of it quickly. They'd just have to evoke the art twice which at least makes it somewhat of a mild hassle.


And on the FateSender argument, I've seen what happens when the FS arts are no longer affected by the protective arts. The FS focus becomes the most broken (OP) thing I've ever seen in the game. Ever.

Perhaps since FS need to work with an SM to be effective, then the Seers should have an art to block Blend from working on a ward, so that GKs have to work with Seers. What do you think of this?
1) Yes you are correct about the cast times and the ability to shatter quickly. The design team would possibly have to look at Shatter's invoke time and make it longer or add higher failure rate? When it comes to Blend, remember that Blend only works on one Ward per invoke. So it would have to be cast again and with the high cost to go through another portal. Not every dreamseer can do this quickly with or without elemens. This is especially true in cases when they blend through a portal to end up in the ward trap. So they would have to act quickly and blend again. Not everyone is Kailoth. My blend sucks and takes forever to invoke, so I would be in a pickle.

I want to point out that although the folks you mentioned can be problematic when it comes to Ward Traps, they aren't around 100% of the time. You cannot expect them to be part of the equation for improving Ward in every scenario. If something is to be done, it should be looked at as a whole and not just on a select few individuals. Not everyone is super duper high sphered and not everyone is a GateKeeper or Dreamseer. You have to take the FateSenders and SoulMasters in the equation.

2) Why are you setting up a Ward trap for a single high sphered Dreamseer in the first place? You know Dreamseers have Blend at 5th sphere. That's the whole point of the art. Of course he's going to blend through, hell I would have done the same thing. You have suggested to add a portal delay before using portals. That would at least give you a chance to stop him. You cannot expect for Ward to be the end all and be all for trapping people. There has to be methods to get by Wards. Checks and balances remember? Otherwise it would be no fun at all and everyone would be a GateKeeper. I cannot stress this enough. I don't understand why folks think there shouldn't be any way to get by or through wards at all? That would make GateKeepers extremely overpowered if they were able to just setup Ward Traps and decimate people without being able to escape. Should I remind you that if you had setup that trap for a FateSender or SoulMaster they would have been stuck? It seems that GateKeepers are just agitated at Dreamseers and other GateKeepers. You need to look at the big picture. FateSenders and SoulMasters would be screwed in those ward trap situations.

3) I 100% agree with arts that work in conjunction with other focuses. This adds a layer of team based cooperation between the focuses. Possibly add a new Dreamseer art called 'Fortify'. This allows the Dreamseer to 'Fortify' an existing Ward. All this art would do is make it so that Shatter and Blend have a higher chance of failing against a Fortified Ward. It doesn't COMPLETELY rule it out though. Folks will still be able to Shatter and Blend, 'Fortify' would make it slightly harder to achieve, that's all. It doesn't necessarily have to be a Dreamseer art but it would make sense given out ability to manipulate dreamspace. Still it can be given to FateSenders or SoulMasters. In order to determine if a ward has 'Fortify' on it, maybe the Ward should have a different color other than gold/yellow. Possibly Jade or Fire color. Something that would make it stand out from regular wards.


I can understand the frustrations that Gatekeepers have. There is a reason focuses have counter to other focus abilities. It's to have not only checks and balances, but provide a route for strategy and thinking on two opposing forces. Considering that both sides would have the same ability to do the same thing.

What I'm trying to say is that there are many different ways to look at this. Improving Ward to stop Blend or Shatter is not the answer. Neither is pocket Warding or Double Warding. The solution needs to be look at across all focuses not just one or two.

Although I have mentioned Ward is fine in my previous thread. Shatter may need to be looked at if it is as fast as some are saying it is. Then again this is a Gatekeeper art. So it will lead to GateKeepers vrs Gatekeepers in terms of Ward and Shatters.
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Ghazgkull
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Ghazgkull »

GateKeepers are good right now.

- Jared

P.S. Nerf Ghazgkull.
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Gerroz
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Gerroz »

Nerf rock, paper is fine

-Sincerely, Scissors
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Starfall
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Starfall »

Make blend evoke longer, last longer, and drop like chamele if you take hostile action. I.e. Preparing is possible and if you prepare you're fine but blending mid combat is riskier.

Tweak shatter to have a flatter curve as it goes up in plateau so lower GKs aren't unduly burdened.
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Venom
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Venom »

Gerroz wrote:Nerf rock, paper is fine

-Sincerely, Scissors

Pretty much, which is why I kept mentioning the Checks and Balances thing. Still it's a pretty good analogy to the Ward debate.
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Sidas
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Sidas »

Starfall wrote:Make blend evoke longer, last longer, and drop like chamele if you take hostile action. I.e. Preparing is possible and if you prepare you're fine but blending mid combat is riskier.

Tweak shatter to have a flatter curve as it goes up in plateau so lower GKs aren't unduly burdened.
Blend is already rough to pull off mid-battle. It's not a fast evoke and doesn't last that long until you get it really up there in levels and even then it'll top off at 100 seconds at level 90.
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coltdorsey
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by coltdorsey »

Shatter is the same evoke speed as Ward. In regard to Tman's ward and shatter, they're seventh plateau, which should be fast. The real problem is the 2-3 second delay when entering a room where you can evoke arts. I can complete a shatter evoke (because its 7th plateau) in the same time it takes for my gameplay to spawn in all the players.

So the real fix here is no arts should be able to be evoked until the players are loaded in the room for the game client. (or something similar.)
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Gerroz
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Gerroz »

That would certainly help. As it is now, ward is obsolete in battle more or less. It shouldn't be so
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Clarity
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Clarity »

OR WE COULD JUST HAVE LESS DREAMSEERS RUNNING AROUND :p

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Starfall
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Starfall »

+1
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Re: Ward Improvement

Post by Seidy »

What???? You take a year or two off and then your ward is useless??? NOOOOOO :evil:
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