Teaching Is Currently Broken; Let's Talk About It

[TehFluffeh]

Hello. Hi. Thank you for stopping by. I was hoping that the somewhat inflammatory subject would do that. Please take a moment to read my initial post and any replies before posting. Thank you again.

I would like to make a series of claims. Let us consider these premises for the sake of our conversation.

1. Underlight is a game.
2. We, as players, play Underlight because we enjoy doing so.
3. "Work" is any task of a menial or uninteresting nature.
4. "Work" is not a desirable state in a game.
5. Arbitrary limits designed to "slow down progress" are just a degenerate edge case of "work." (We'll call it busy wait.)
6. Underlight's teaching system is its greatest asset; a system that can be used to enhance and drive roleplaying forward.
7. Underlight's teaching system has, traditionally, failed to live up to the previous premise. Including in Lyra's incarnation.
8. Every attempt should be made to minimize the role of GMs in in-game matters.
9. Teaching is an in-game matter.

I hope that you are still with me at this point, and that you agree with these statements as premises. Perhaps you do not. That is something that we can discuss, because not agreeing with these premises means you are likely to end up at very different conclusions than I am about to argue.

Based on these premises I would like to draw the following conclusions:

• Tasks which qualify as "work" should be banished entirely. Players play to have fun. Work is bad. Tasks should serve to enhance roleplay.
• Not being able to start a sphere/plat task until maxed results in busy wait, where the student must spend some arbitrary period of time not progressing because they could not optimize their task path.
• Whether or not a student wants to platue or learn arts is an in-game issue with in-game consequences. If the player wants to be 9th sphere with level 10 flame, that is a valid roleplay. Forcing them to platue arts is busy wait.

Do you disagree with my premises or conclusions? If so, please explain why. I'd like to understand the opposite view point. Do you have additional conclusions where the current teaching environment has failed to support the roleplaying environment or Underlight's potential? Add it in the comments.

Let's start an open conversation about the state of teaching in Underlight, which I feel is heading in the wrong direction, and what changes (if any) we feel Koi needs to consider to support the growth of Underlight: CoD going forward.

[Lu Chaos]

The point about the plateauing your arts I strongly agree with. I think that if someone wants to progress and gain more dreamsoul and focus elemental points rather than platting their arts should be entirely up to the dreamer.

[Koi-Alastar]

"Menial" or "uninteresting" is very subjective. What one person may consider "fun", another person will not. What one person considers to be "enhancing role play", another will consider dull, rehashed, forced, etc.

Generally speaking, we cannot outright control what players write in their quests as long as they are not breaking any obvious rules (giving stuff away for free, PKing, crossover, offensive material, etc). If your character dislikes a task from a specific Teacher - GMMT or player - they are free to hand it back and request a new one.

So, in response to the first item of tasks in general, it would be very difficult to enforce any guidelines that we were even able to all agree to. Undoubtedly, this would make half the players happy and half of them unhappy.


In regards to plateaus needed to Sphere, I can see your point here more. I don't know if you played SoT, but the requirements are considerably less than those in SoT but are admittedly higher than in Lyra. Months ago, I decided this would be a good compromise. I have no problem reassessing this.


In general, already the enormous majority of tasking is being done by players to players. GMMTs are primarily utilized to give out Train plateaus (for the short time being) and fill in gaps for high-Sphere arts or when a player doesn't interact with a teacher who could help much. So the matter of Teaching already is out of the GMs' hands for the most part.

[Ghazgkull]

+1 on no work. The goal should be to encourage people to contribute positively to the roleplaying environment, period.

So I agree that we shouldn't require plateaus for spheres. Some of the best roleplayers from the Lyra days (kudzoo, boggen, Haleth, etc) followed very non-traditional advancement paths. I'm not one of them obviously, because I've got most GK arts at 70, but even Ghazgkull has some arts at low levels for RP reasons (e.g. Random isn't even at lvl 9). The decision about whether and when someone maxes or plateaus their arts should be left to each player.

But I do disagree with the implication of claim 8 & 9. I see GM tasking as a great way for the GM team to insert "indirect" RP contributions. All the high-plateau tasks that come to my character from GMs result in Ghazgkull giving out related tasks to other players. I take those tasks and use them as inspiration to get other people roleplaying with me. I think this is a really healthy way to have RP ideas "seeded" into the game and I wouldn't want to lose that aspect.

- Jared

[Tary]

Oh, boy. You knew I was going to have to respond to this one. Standard disclaimers apply.

I pretty much agree entirely. I think, also, to Jared's point: you do need GMs to seed roleplays, and if they can do it via 8 and 9, great. But to a very great extend I'd like to see GMs take a completely hands-off approach to teaching wherever possible.

I've heard about a lot of rules that have sounded completely inane to me. I don't know if they're true, if they're IC or OOC or if they've come down from GMs or not, but here is a partial list of edicts I have a major problem with:

• You must max your sphere before you can task for the next.
• You must have learned all learnable arts (with some very minor exceptions) before you task for the next sphere
• Your focus/blade/flame needs to be at your current orbit level before you task for the next sphere
• Tasks should take some defined period of time
• "Bring me the head of Dreamer X" is not a valid task (note: I didn't say "collapse dreamer X")
• Players advancing too quickly must be slowed down

If even one of these is true, that's a major problem. It's a problem because these are all based on some notion of "the players are children who need to be watched" or "advancement must be slowed down." It's all very protestant and very much "if you work hard ye shall reap what ye sow."

Here's the thing: it's a game. Like I said in IRC yesterday: I JUST WANT TO PLAY WITH MY TOYS. That's all. It's a toy, like a new toy car for my son. Saying, "you can't get sphere 4 until you've learned Poison" is silly. I don't want to learn Poison. Saying, "You can't task sphere 4 until you're maxxed on sphere 3 and the game is super not fun because you're pegged below a sphere so maybe we'll just create a little churn so we can lose more players" is silly. Yes, I'm being slightly sarcastic there, but I think it's true: people need to be given some form of immediate gratification. They need to feel as though they're making progress. Being maxxed at a sphere is literally the most boring time you can have in Underlight. I think it's reasonable to say you can start tasking for Sphere+1 at orb x5+ (i.e. sphere 2 at orb 15+, sphere 3 at orb 25+, etc.). This seems like a fair compromise.

On tasking: tasking should be fun and for small arts shouldn't take more than 30-60 minutes. Here are some examples. I don't know if these are valid or not, but these are tasks I would jump ALL OVER:

Task for Identify/plat for Identify:

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Come hunting Agoknights with me for 30 minutes. Pick up the items the Agoknights drop. Tell me the specs of each item without using Identify. You may use each item twice.

Task for Resist Fear/RF plat:

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Come with me to Horron's Lair while I gensit. You may wear FA and Vision, not Resist Fear. Distract the Horron for 15 minutes while I grab items from the gens.

Task for Abjure:

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Abjure can be used for good or ill, removing both things like Free Action and Deafen against the will of the evokee. Find 3/5/whatever members of house X/Y/Z (where X/Y/Z is the enemy of the house of the student) and do unasked "favors" for them. Do they shun you? Extra points if these favors are secretly harmful or inconvenient (giving them a 1 charged level 38 chakram for example)

Another task for an Abjure plat:

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Using only Abjure and this chakram (a para chak or whatever), solo 2 Shamblixes

Another task for an Abjure art-learn:

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Follow members of the house hunting/into battle/etc. You must keep their FA, RF, Prot up. You must supply them with Vision alts. You are to be their packmule at all times.

There's a theme here and you don't need to work hard to find it: I use existing game mechanics with an easily accomplishable goal within a short period of time that I also think is fine. No faffing about with theorizing. No classes. No poetry. Just good old fashioned gameplay.

I think we should also make pretty broad changes to game mechanics, for example:

• Master Teachers should be able to train Train with support tokens from 3/5/whatever# other teachers. Same for train plats. Same for Sphere.
• GMs should choose only MTs.
• Untrain is an OOC art and should be used only for OOC infractions like cheating.
• Useless arts, and even some useful ones, should autoplat. Recall? Autoplat. Give? Join Party? Locate? Sense? All of those are useless and should be autoplat. If we can't do that then they should be mass-taskable by a teacher.
• Advancement should be SIGNIFICANTLY fast-tracked up to sphere 3, including auto-granting arts. If that's not deisrable then the tasks should be complete softballs up to and including sphere 3. A sphere 2 task should take an hour or two at most. A sphere 3 task a few more hours. Nothing major.
• Basically, if it can be run by the players it should be run by them. GMs should move to an "enforcer" role and for giving tasks that are very high plats/high spheres that push the game story forward.

Whew. I think that's it for now.

[Noidea]

Tary, I don't know about the OOC pros and cons, but IC those tasks are awesome - they read like something the magician would give his apprentice to do in an actual story. For that reason alone I'm all for them (and I also think they would be fun to do).

Idea: Theory tasks annoy me too if I have too many of them, but even they can "enhance roleplay" in some circumstances. I've sometimes thought that it might work for a teacher (for genuine reasons of the character's own, naturally) to come up with some really sensitive question, one that would really set the cat among the pigeons with the various faction beliefs, and then give out multiple tasks involving some variation on it until the whole City was discussing it.

I do disagree with the implication of claim 8 & 9. I see GM tasking as a great way for the GM team to insert "indirect" RP contributions. All the high-plateau tasks that come to my character from GMs result in Ghazgkull giving out related tasks to other players. I take those tasks and use them as inspiration to get other people roleplaying with me. I think this is a really healthy way to have RP ideas "seeded" into the game and I wouldn't want to lose that aspect.

- Jared

Jared, can you give examples of those tasks, please, if that's allowed? That way, high level non-GM teachers can learn to give out more tasks like them. I like the sound of it.

Oh - and I'm all for not requiring players to be maxed before getting a task for a sphere. That used to annoy me in SoT. Just say that the task isn't complete until they've reached the requirements. That's a small thing that's easy enough to fix.

[Starfall]

I've tried to turn my theory tasks into something more interesting by asking the students what would partially or conclusively disprove their theory when they report. That's an actual problem solving effort that has value.

My only major suggestion was one I posted in a separate thread. I think regaining spheres should be much easier, just a matter of gaining the needed supports. I sit here thinking about why I as a sphere teacher should make someone work to regain it and I can't think of a single reason.

I also think an interview should be sufficient for gaining sphere supports. The support system was put in place to act as a check on other teachers' tasking after complaints that people were getting spheres too easily, during the peak of the Lyra days fears about advancement. ("Omg! bad teachers! falling standards!")

I concur about the art levels issue. I don't think a student should be obligated to plateau anything in advance. We know how long one can be at a given sphere even working on a task for the next. That's time to catch up. I had most of my major arts in the 30s when I gained 5th sphere. I spent enough time at 5th that I brought many of them up but I still have things like Scare at 29.

[Ghazgkull]

Jared, can you give examples of those tasks, please, if that's allowed? That way, high level non-GM teachers can learn to give out more tasks like them. I like the sound of it.

Sure. One example is a Return to 70 task from Aaronyes: "Organize the Guard to patrol the city in search of information and other evidence of violent incursions. Not only are their foul beasts to worry about but the warring parties of Templars and Vanguard. Formulate a formal plan of action to be used in times of trouble."

I gave out 5 tasks as part of this, along with the legwork my character did directly. One person in each house got tasked to enact a plan for their house defense along with something else (e.g. the AOE person was also asked to figure out their DM policy since that was a concern of Ghazgkull's). And a member of the City Guard got a task to help Ghaz dig up information on the Templars/Vanguard.

- Jared

[Sidious]

I think it's something to remember also, that we're training characters in a game for levels in some arts, not TEACHING PEOPLE.

I don't take my life lessons out of UL, and I don't want you to think a halo in ul gives you a responsibility to give me any.

(that's more a gripe from lyra ul teachers but I could see that happening)

[Koi-Alastar]

As mentioned earlier, I hear the argument behind plateaus needed to Sphere and even obtaining a Sphere task prior to being maxed. However, just because I am willing to 'discuss' this does not mean it will definitely be changed tomorrow - or ever - to something that YOU will definitely like 100%...what you like, player B will not.

In regards to general task difficulty, 90% of tasks are being done by players to other players. If you all feel these are needlessly cumbersome, then that is something the community can work on. However, I have never in an official capacity nor on Kanto in-game given any comment on tasks needing to be 'hard'. I have two criteria that I use when writing tasks: 1. DO something (more than talk, discuss, theorize); 2. Involve other players.

There have been zero teaching infractions/investigations due to "ease/difficulty" of the task, but rather relating to other more non-debatable rules (tasks that involve QRP/sexuality, harassment, etc).

These are my guidelines/vision when I was setting up the Teaching system in January of this year, long before we even went live (removed explanations for sake of space):

"Initially, we will be needed to help set up the teaching system, and will always be needed to serve the highest tier of players. Our short- to mid-term goal should be allowing this system to be self-sustaining. Player teachers should be given the tools and freedom to dispense the majority of advancement within the game.

In my opinion, the easiest way to allow this to happen is to address some common mistakes:

1. Tasks should not be hard simply for the sake of being hard.
2. Over-reward great work.
3. Tasks should not aim to "teach life lessons": it's a game.
4. Tasks should not have to be completed to 110% satisfaction..."A for effort".
5. Tasks should not have a goal that clearly relies on GM involvement.
6. Do not force waiting periods.

The teaching system is meant to reward players for being involved in the game & the community. It is not meant to punish or stall those who do not meet our arbitrary standards of 'enough' involvement."


Now...this does not mean that #1 = tasks shouldn't involve a challenge; #4 = you can BS your way through it; #6 = you get everything you want yesterday; etc

There are players who take great pride in RPing a 'difficult/challenging' Teacher and I'm not about to force them to be easier any more than I have been forcing accommodating teachers to be more difficult. If you don't like that style of teaching, go to one of the other dozens of teachers. I'd also caution that the easier it is to advance, the quicker we will have a bunch of maxed characters with nothing to aim for, resulting in burn-out from no goals...just as perilous to the game's success as burn-out from being held back.

I would ask that claiming the teaching system has 'failed' be restrained. There are many volunteer GMs working hard to find a delicate balance between many different players who all want different things out of the game...and it is impossible for us to please everyone. Because something isn't what you want doesn't mean it has 'failed'.

[Tary]

A few points.

2. Involve other players.

Right. I think that's critical but I think I also have a slight problem with it. Again: this is where I get selfish, but I think a lot of people are in the same boat with me. Let's say I'm tasking for something super major - Sphere 7 maybe. I don't know. Something big. And I'm told, "hold 4 hunting classes and 3 dueling classes and, etc." Here's my beef (sphere 7 might have been a bad choice): I simply don't have the ability to dedicate regular time to Underlight. I'd like to say I can give an hour a day, but the hour a day I can give is at something like 3AM EST. That helps nobody, because I'm literally the only person in-game at 3AM EST sometimes.

So it's hard. Remember: you can't always involve other players, but if I'm asking you for a task now, then I'm playing now, ergo the task should be doable now such that I can report it shortly thereafter or the next time you play. Obviously for something super-major like 7th sphere it'll be a much longer thing, much more open ended and the whole 7th sphere example was bad. Scratch it from the record. I think you get my point anyway.

The teaching system is meant to reward players for being involved in the game & the community.

On this I agree, and on this I think I need to make a point. I don't believe you should have to do a formal task if you're already doing a great job playing your character. Honestly, I see no compelling reason to give Ghazgkull a sphere 7 (8? Whatever!) task. The dude's knocking it out of the park on being involved and playing a compelling character who is both awesome and believable. There's nobody in Underlight who doesn't know him. So isn't it sufficient to say, "For your 7th sphere task continue being a complete baller and just get your supports."? Obviously not in so crude a manner, and maybe more like "Establish the City Guard." But -- yeah. That's all. It's entirely consistent with his character and might be something he's already doing. It doesn't need to be a formal task. He's doing the task. He's involved. Winner winner.

I'd also caution that the easier it is to advance, the quicker we will have a bunch of maxed characters with nothing to aim for, resulting in burn-out from no goals...

That's my problem, not yours.

No, seriously: that's a dev problem, not a teaching problem. There's no reason we couldn't have a sphere 11, sphere 12, etc. None whatsoever. We just need to write the code for it. I really am not worried about reaching an "end state" because we can always add more content. Reaching orbit 99 should NEVER be a worry for any of us. We can add more content if we have to.

[Lu Chaos]

The only negative thing I have to say about the teaching system as a whole is the learning all learnable arts in order to sphere..

That sucks and is pointless, I don't wanna have to learn Push and blah blah if I don't have too, what's the freaking point?

That's my two cents in the situation.. Get rid of the Learnable arts hold back and i think the teaching system will be fine.

[Koi-Wish]

There is a plan in motion.

Stay tuned.

[Star Scream]

Keep in mind that you have to collapse 1000 agoknights to gain an orbit at 7th sphere, 10,000 agoknights to gain an orbit at 8th sphere, and 50,000 agoknights to gain an orbit at 9th sphere. I don't think anybody will be getting orbit 99 anytime soon.

I think your on the low side buddy. 500,000 xp at 6th, 1 million at 7th, 1.5 million at 8th. So that is 500 agos at 6th per orbit, 1000 at 7th, and 10000 at 8th, right? Anyway, I know it takes about 5-6 hours of hunting per orbit at 6th. That's if your getting after it.

Just reread your post and ealised that you were right. Woops, my bad. But yeah, its a task to get maxxed at 6th sphere and up. 5th is the last reasonable sphere. 8th is were it gets almost impossivle and I know that because typically GeRR and I spend a lot of hours hunting and its just a drop in the bucket for him. Not to mention if he gets collapsed and has to spend a week getting what he lost back.

[Star Scream]

On teaching, I don't know how everyone else has approached tasking since Clash started but I can tell you what I do to try to make it more enjoyable for the student.

1. I ask the student if there is anything that they are currently involved in or would like to do that they are already planning but don't have a task for.

2. I listen to them explain what they are involved in or what they want to do and I try to figure out an avenue that they can improve on or something that can be added to make it better or more interesting for them and get more people involved.

3. I discuss with them what I am thinking about tasking them and get thier input. Almost like they are helping me make thier task for them.

4. I write the task and hand it to them, letting them know that we can still change it if they don't like it.

This is pretty much how I approach every task. The only time its differnt is if I have a task from a teacher already that I need help with and I may task a student to assist me somehow or if I know the student really well and know what they are interested in already and I try to give them something creative that I know they would have fun doing, usually something deceptive for like GeRR or something that would help the house resolve an issue like I've done for Krodoc. I try to make it were the task actually serves a purpose that is beneficial for them, thier house, or me personally.

My tasks are also sometimes silly and fun if they are for a simple art. Like, playing a trick on somebody for fun to learn a minor art like scare. I try to make sure that my tasks are never pointless busy work and definetly never boring.

For Gatekeeper arts like ward I like to give tasks like Boggen used to give. Learning about pocket wards, double warding, what portals in the city can be warded but you can still get past. Things like that were always fun to me as a noob so I think they are still fun today for other noobs. I might give a task that is old school if it is beneficial for the student somehow. By old school I mean learning about the art and how it works, what its limitations are and so forth. These tasks are less common from me but when they appear to be useful for a REAL noob, I might give them out.I also think that a lot of the old school Lyra art histories can be fun and interesting, adding to the lore of UL, so I may from time to time give a task to learn about them to a student that is the type that likes to hear stories and document histories. It always depends on the student.

Lastly, if you do a task for SS and you are a seasoned teacher yourself, that I respect, its not uncommon for me to ask your oppinion on my task and wether you enjoyed doing it. I may also ask how you think I could improve on future tasks.