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dark mares

This is a game for roleplayers. We want your ideas how how to build the better game. Post your suggestions here.
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Ashton
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Re: dark mares

Post by Ashton »

I'm not super fond of a GM telling the players, "If you don't like it, go somewhere else." There is a valid concern here from the playerbase that eight razorwinds in a matter of seconds is sort of overkill. One, two, three, four.. yes. I can see that.

I'm one of those lower sphered players. By the time the third razorwind comes up I have the option to float, try to grab an elemen, and by the time I've done that, I float. Perils of being a third sphere, and that's okay. I can't fight, so I stand around and offer support when necessary. But when a single DM shows up versus a bunch of 5th+ sphere abjurers restorers and paralyzers - he can't be expected to overpower the entire room. That's not realistic for this late stage in the game. Bring a buddy. Bring another buddy. And skip the part where people will say "Go to Sanctuary if you can't handle it." That's not the point.

There's really no common ground here, honestly. It's frustrating for all the support inside to not be in a group who happens to get the lucky shot, and that's a risk players have to take sadly. If Dms were worth a gazillion exp I could justify that razorwind spam.

Just my two cents though.
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Sidious
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Re: dark mares

Post by Sidious »

Why do we keep making this about xp? Dms aren't there to be farmed, I'd say take the xp away entirely so it's not thought of in that light. Dark mares and similar mechanics in other games are there to make you go play the rest of the game again, ie hunt, for xp, items. As well as a number of additional reasons, none of which being a way for you to gain xp.

Staying in sanctuary is the best tactic we have and the reason we couldn't hold the keep was because everyone was on it rather than being inside and not taking damage while they provide support.

As for kill shots again, I'm an exceptional fighter, do you think I enjoy letting tman get all the kill shots while I abjure? Not really, but I assume my role because that's what is needed.

Big thanks to ivunsasu for not letting me have a second to breathe on the facade btw, and getting that kill shot was huge for me after that mess.
you
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Koi-Wish
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Re: dark mares

Post by Koi-Wish »

The statement wasn't intended to be GO someplace as else as much as it was - If you don't like the heat get out of the fire. Recognizing self limitation. No one sits in the middle of a campfire and expects to not get burned unless they are prepared to sit in a campfire. If your not prepared, then don't sit there. The ones that saw the RWing chain and chose to continue sitting in it... well, I mean, I guess I don't know how else to lay that out. Don't stay there? And if you choose to stay, you can't complain you did. Not sure how else to word that gently. Also, I'm assuming another DM or two was RWing or FSing - because those logs don't match mine time for time - because I can't possible RW that fast and certainly didn't FS that fast as I barely used it except when Lucidity didn't permit the RW.

Regardless, at the end of the day.... it is what it is. Even a perfectly executed battle would result in someone calling foul for some reason or another. What one dreamer enjoys as a challenge another dreamer would suggest is unfair. Everything is relative.
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Ashton
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Re: dark mares

Post by Ashton »

I didn't mean to make it sound like it's all about XP, that was just an aside to another point I was trying to make. I don't view DMs as something that requires any experience at the end of it.. they are an RP tool. I think Wish is doing a TREMENDOUS job RPing with it.. sometimes as a player I enjoy interacting with them with that different language as opposed to just getting pwned all night long. Either way, razorwind spam chaps my ass =P

There never will be any making EVERYONE happy, it's just nice to be able to voice my opinion on this side of the fence.

:)
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Sidious
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Re: dark mares

Post by Sidious »

I went ahead and stayed floating for a bit to talk to kru, ;)
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Re: dark mares

Post by Briggs »

Koi-Wish wrote:Briggs/Toby'z its real easy guys. You don't like the RWing then get out of the room and go to Thresh Pits... The game is about having fun... I had fun winning and losing - and was quite proud of the players when they figured out how to beat me down. Good job.
I agree, the game is about having fun and this is the game suggestion forum. I don't mind losing, it's part of the game, but I was letting you all know that the Razorwind spam was not fun for me and several others complained about it IG or on the forums here also. It's just not what we are accustomed to from fighting DMs in lyra days, which I loved doing, whether I won or lost. I appreciate Alastar's response.
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Koi-Wish
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Re: dark mares

Post by Koi-Wish »

Final thoughts on this -

For one, for me, this is my first time driving a DM historically. I like to think I have a pretty grip on it. But I will make mistakes - In retrospect the RWing was heavy. But I've also been in with Kruu a number of times before and dipped into that pot just not as often or effectively. In my own defense, when I would chain RW I was able to gain the upper hand by getting folks to either float or get the heck out of the way. This pitted me squarely against the 'toe to toe' combatants which was fun and exciting for those who could do it. When the crowds came rushing in, the same approach was used, try to break their spirits. Perhaps I did it heavily, and I will have to show a bit more constraint with whatever DM I drive. I don't have any desire to drive players away, totally contrary to the concept we have going here. At the same time there was a RP concept set in motion - Kruu was trying to establish himself as one to be feared and also the pecking order of the DMs ... all the while enticing the IC players to see the anger he has towards the other faction. Some players jumped on this from an RP standpoint and that was fun. He also established himself as one bad mofo if he really wants to drop a beating. I don't want 3rd sphere dreamers to want to tangle with Kruu - or even a small group of talented combatants. When he steps into the City, I was trying to establish Kruu as a OMG Kruugaar! And folks fear him. I think I have gained him a bit of that respect IC and thus have done well to that avenue. Maybe Wednesday was overkill, maybe it wasn't. Relative to situational battles its hard to find a "fair" or "balanced" way to engage. But I'm trying, and I will make mistakes, and I will do things right. And likely at any given point I will do both at the same time.

I will try to be more RW aware. But make no mistake, if I am driving Kruu - a storms coming.
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Re: dark mares

Post by Sidas »

Koi-Wish wrote:Final thoughts on this -

For one, for me, this is my first time driving a DM historically. I like to think I have a pretty grip on it. But I will make mistakes - In retrospect the RWing was heavy. But I've also been in with Kruu a number of times before and dipped into that pot just not as often or effectively. In my own defense, when I would chain RW I was able to gain the upper hand by getting folks to either float or get the heck out of the way. This pitted me squarely against the 'toe to toe' combatants which was fun and exciting for those who could do it. When the crowds came rushing in, the same approach was used, try to break their spirits. Perhaps I did it heavily, and I will have to show a bit more constraint with whatever DM I drive. I don't have any desire to drive players away, totally contrary to the concept we have going here. At the same time there was a RP concept set in motion - Kruu was trying to establish himself as one to be feared and also the pecking order of the DMs ... all the while enticing the IC players to see the anger he has towards the other faction. Some players jumped on this from an RP standpoint and that was fun. He also established himself as one bad mofo if he really wants to drop a beating. I don't want 3rd sphere dreamers to want to tangle with Kruu - or even a small group of talented combatants. When he steps into the City, I was trying to establish Kruu as a OMG Kruugaar! And folks fear him. I think I have gained him a bit of that respect IC and thus have done well to that avenue. Maybe Wednesday was overkill, maybe it wasn't. Relative to situational battles its hard to find a "fair" or "balanced" way to engage. But I'm trying, and I will make mistakes, and I will do things right. And likely at any given point I will do both at the same time.

I will try to be more RW aware. But make no mistake, if I am driving Kruu - a storms coming.
If that's your intent for Kruugaar then that is fine. I would recommend you follow the Tzayak path, though, and make him a very uncommon dreaming mare. It would be like "Echten Thrall" in SoT, where every dreamer could expect to float in the fight against that mare, but it's so uncommon that it's still fun.
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Starfall
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Re: dark mares

Post by Starfall »

I'll defend the concern about XP, even though I wasn't there for this battle, because it's about XP for me. Not necessarily getting XP from DM collapses, but losing it against impossible odds/in unavoidable fights.

This isn't a dig on anyone for this, or about taking a position on whether or not the DM Wednesdays are "too much". I just think dismissing XP loss as an invalid concern is wrong.

One collapse right now takes me about 3 hours of focused, dedicated hunting, alone, in a prime location, without interruption to recoup. Interruptions, being partied (I can clear a plane solo before respawns so parties don't speed it up for me), and my own ability to maintain interest that long slow it down. It's a huge reason I don't play a violently confrontational character and why I don't appreciate being forced into violent confrontation IC. Hunting is godawful boring. And even though Starfall walks away intact far more often than they don't, it's hard to view collapses as anything other than a PC/DM/npc mare forcing me to spend time doing the one thing I hate in this game. It's not about XP itself, it's about time. And that's time I could be spending doing literally anything else, in game or out of game.

For that reason, I don't mind losing a good fight if the fight is worth having. I almost, almost got popped by Ivunsasu while floor fighting him alongside Dakkoth, and that was a long, very evenly matched fight (nearly a stalemate) that I wouldn't have been upset about going down in. Mainly because the abjure + para combo was stuck down in the floor fighting on the backside of the Keep which was very non-ideal but not horribly lopsided (and I was on my laptop). But I have a hard time not resenting it when it's an unfair or unavoidable fight or impossible odds. I want it to be worth the time I have to spend making it up.
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Re: dark mares

Post by Dina »

Yeah it takes a while to hunt back what you lose when you are higher sphere and the spawn rate on the mares take longer now. I remember being in Thresh Caves and not having to wait an eternity for an ago to respawn.
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Re: dark mares

Post by Ghazgkull »

To echo what was said above, the amount of non-roleplaying play time required to regain lost XP is the biggest issue to me. Second biggest is the time cost to regain lost items. If it weren't for those things, having OP darkmares wouldn't be a big deal.

At 7th and 8th sphere (and to a lesser degree 6th), the XP numbers are just broken. And the darkmare battles are a place where it really can be an issue. Because it puts a real disincentive on the strongest characters to participate.

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Dakkoth
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Re: dark mares

Post by Dakkoth »

Starfall wrote:I'll defend the concern about XP, even though I wasn't there for this battle, because it's about XP for me. Not necessarily getting XP from DM collapses, but losing it against impossible odds/in unavoidable fights.

This isn't a dig on anyone for this, or about taking a position on whether or not the DM Wednesdays are "too much". I just think dismissing XP loss as an invalid concern is wrong.

One collapse right now takes me about 3 hours of focused, dedicated hunting, alone, in a prime location, without interruption to recoup. Interruptions, being partied (I can clear a plane solo before respawns so parties don't speed it up for me), and my own ability to maintain interest that long slow it down. It's a huge reason I don't play a violently confrontational character and why I don't appreciate being forced into violent confrontation IC. Hunting is godawful boring. And even though Starfall walks away intact far more often than they don't, it's hard to view collapses as anything other than a PC/DM/npc mare forcing me to spend time doing the one thing I hate in this game. It's not about XP itself, it's about time. And that's time I could be spending doing literally anything else, in game or out of game.

For that reason, I don't mind losing a good fight if the fight is worth having. I almost, almost got popped by Ivunsasu while floor fighting him alongside Dakkoth, and that was a long, very evenly matched fight (nearly a stalemate) that I wouldn't have been upset about going down in. Mainly because the abjure + para combo was stuck down in the floor fighting on the backside of the Keep which was very non-ideal but not horribly lopsided (and I was on my laptop). But I have a hard time not resenting it when it's an unfair or unavoidable fight or impossible odds. I want it to be worth the time I have to spend making it up.
That was a good fight, wasn't it Starfall? I had no vision and was literally hopping around judging blindly where I had to go until somebody finally gave me vision. We survived. then Darby and I turned on the abjure/para combo relentlessly as Ivunsasu was being a bit or a prick putting his back to the corner and evoking arts (razorwinding or abjuring). Otherwise, I was having fun being on the floor trying to gain the angle to hit at it's back. But when Ivunsasu went to cheap tactics, I went back to mine (abjure spamming with para/para chak combo).

Now I want to also note something else. I call total and utter bullshit on any GM who replied to this post saying that none of the DM's invoked invulnerability. The first dream I encountered the DM ViiRiis, he did just that. Not only did I have immediate Abjure/para chak combos that were numerously ignored as if he couldn't be affected by it (way way way too fast for him to have used an alt considering he was moving and chakfiring) but perhaps the single most undisputable display of his invulnerability at that time was when he stood still to chain evoke Abjure on me and Gwyloth and we both shot him directly in the back as flush as can be (myself 6 straight shots with a 46 chak) and ViiRiis never screamed nor made any animation of taking damage. We moved to Sanctuary thereafter and I made an ingame mission statement about him and his invulnerability (I believe it's still up). I also have the logs to prove that at no point on that day (and I was present for 100% of the fighting on that day) that ViiRiis took no dmg to any artform or chakfire. So don't say you haven't done it because you have and we took notice of it. Maybe a mistake....maybe not.

Overall, I love the challenge. For me playing Dakkoth, I can survive in the middle and hold my own. He's high sphered enough with my skill level and it's fun. I wasn't there for DM Wednesday but I can believe the pain that was brought. I wish I was there to experience it. But I can sympathize with those who aren't as fast reacting (even as high sphere) or those that are clearly too low sphere/low skill to even be in the room. Moreso I symphathize with the high sphere/low skill players as it is a huge xp loss which requires way too much time hunting to make up the exp. When I collapse as a 6th sphere, it's about 100 agoknights (unpartied) to make that back up. It gets exponentially worse for 7th and 8th sphere (gerroz I can only imagine). It's just utterly boring and time consuming. For part time players, there's just not enough time to recoup from a multiple collapse loss. This would deter people from participating in perhaps the most fun aspect of the game.

In closing, I only suggest to knock it off with the cheap tactics. I don't mind if you guys chain razorwind but don't do it with your backs to a corner or portal where you can't get hit (which has happened and was done so on purpose). We all have eyes and can clearly see when a DM backs himself up into a corner and chain casts. Sure...I counter it with Abjure/Scare but when you do it when there's no Abjurer in the room, that's a pretty pathetic cheap tactic. PLEASE avoid doing that. As for the chain razorwinding in general, this is welcomed. It should force us to use basic ingame strategies of being in party and in other rooms with restorers and the like assisting from other rooms (doesn't even have to be sanctuary although that's the ideal for dreamers). Just don't have 4 of you evoking it at the same time so that, with or without lag spikes, it's impossible to even react. That takes the fun out of it. There's no possibility of fun when you instacollapse as a 7th sphere because you just took 80 immediate damage when walking in the room (through a shield mind you). It's just too much and you said you noted it so enough said on that.

If you doubt anything I've said, I will gladly post ALL of my logs from every DM fight to date and you can see for yourself. I will also start video recording DM fights so that perhaps everyone can learn (GM and dreamer alike) of the do's and don'ts.

I love the challenge...I love the RP possibilities....tone down some of the cheap stuff and it's all good. As for dreamers, more motivation for you to get better or learn your role. If you can't hang in the middle, get the f out of it. Caught in the middle once? ok. Caught in the middle twice, three times, four times? your fault. Get better or stay in sanc.

Mike
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Re: dark mares

Post by Dina »

Pfft last night I was abjuring Grashnak I donno how many times, or should I say....I abjured myself many times last night. Not sure I even got an abjure to take anything off of him. If you don't see Dina abjuring, it is because she is tired of using up her alts to reapply her arts!
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Koi-Wish
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Re: dark mares

Post by Koi-Wish »

Dakkoth I hate to tell you this. But a DM can not, not by Rules but simply CANNOT by the client invoke invulnerable. Its by design. Sorry but they simply Can't do it. End of story.
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Koi-Wish
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Re: dark mares

Post by Koi-Wish »

And don't throw at me in SoT you could so it MUST be same here. Its not. It's simply not possible logs or not.
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Lunk
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Re: dark mares

Post by Lunk »

it was all fun

good fights.

I was saying we were all in a underground bunker waiting for the tornado to pass hoping our house doesnt get blown away while we were all huddled in the sanc.

it was more like we were all in a nuclear bunker hoping the nukes don't fall haha. amazing night. so spooky. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

my character should soon stop flapping its mouth at Kruugaar because the effects of the on goings all got worse after that happened he should soon know his place

Never had a DM fight like that

I've never got even a single kill in the few times I've driven my daymare. thats how hard dreamers are to tangle with and deal with especially at this point in time, its like your all super deadly and don't consider it. dreamers are in huge huge huge overwhelming odds against us. I'm not sure why ppl complained about how hard it was to fight with that bit in play.

so fun

good times lol lol
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Starfall
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Re: dark mares

Post by Starfall »

In defense of Wish, even an invulnerale gm character screams when hit and does the hit animation; they just don't take the damage. if the character doesn't react at all to a direct hit, that's lag. (or hacked client, but thats a bit much to accuse a GM of! :P) So I'm betting ViiRiis was lagging at that moment. This happened a bunch to me with Grashnak last night.
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Re: dark mares

Post by Tobyz Friend »

I am sorry if my posts were misconstrued, I really enjoy the dark mare fights and have no problem getting collapsed multiple times, my only problem was with the inability to do any damage to the mare. As to Wish, I am sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you, that was not my intent. As for last night I have to commend Grashnak, that was some fun fighting.
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Starfall
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Re: dark mares

Post by Starfall »

Yeah. The Grashnak fight was a blast.
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Re: dark mares

Post by Zed Lagoon »

Honestly.. I dont care what the DMs do in battle, they are fun to fight against period. lol

Especially when i got a chance to interact with Ivunsasu man that was fun as hell to me lol. TY GMs forget the negative feed back you guys are epic!


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Re: dark mares

Post by Koi-Drama »

Dakkoth wrote:Now I want to also note something else. I call total and utter bullshit on any GM who replied to this post saying that none of the DM's invoked invulnerability. The first dream I encountered the DM ViiRiis, he did just that. Not only did I have immediate Abjure/para chak combos that were numerously ignored as if he couldn't be affected by it
Just to clear up any confusion or misconceptions.

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Starfall
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Re: dark mares

Post by Starfall »

Damn, that's a neat behind the scenes look. I'd love to see one from your perspective during an actual live fight! :D

(Also not cool that you had to debunk something like that. :-/ Sorry Koi folks.)
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Re: dark mares

Post by Sidious »

So, about the xp thing and the boring hunting it back.

Join a house, post your losses.

Don't go fight. It's called risk/reward. You want to be 7th, you risk losing a lot more xp in a fight, but your reward is that you're more powerful.

Don't anger characters that can and will collapse you.

You can survive a dark mare fight at 4th sphere and up. It's up to you to decide your priorities, do you want to be 7th and sometimes lose a ton of xp or do you want to be 5th and lose a smaller amount? Or do you just want to be 7th and not fight?

Trade offs. Who said you're obligated to have it all? You are aware of how the game works before you get into these situations, so you have everything you need to either avoid them or risk it.

I like challenge in my games, and there's a lot of it in this one. Taking it out or dumbing it down is just not a good idea.
Dina

Re: dark mares

Post by Dina »

Can I has a darkmare named Tootsie plz? I love you long time!
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Re: dark mares

Post by KirtesOmathear »

I personally believe that Darkmare essences should be able to be turned into something.. Instead of just being like the same as any other nightmare essence.

Though I wouldnt know what they would be suggested to be used to make or traded for. Just think they should hold more value.
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