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Option to create a PvE only character?

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Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:15 am

My suggestion is for character creation to include an option for the character to be PvE only, unable to damage other player characters or to be damaged by them, anywhere in the game. Does anyone think it would ruin the game for you for some of the player characters to be PvE only?
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It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Black Cloud » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:59 am

Yeah I think it lean more towards ruining the gameplay. How would you justify IC that certain players are untouchable? What would be the overall benefit/risk of this to the individual and the rest of the player base? There is already a house art which can do this temporarily. Also, there are sanctuaries to keep safe. PVP is not as big of an issue as some make it out to be. There has to be some risk in any game for it to remain interesting.

What if a player decides to change their status at some point, for whatever reason? Would it be possible or is it permanent? If it's just a click of a button to activate/deactivate, then what would keep players from abusing this, being untouchable when they desire and becoming a threat to others if the occasion arises? I know that's a lot of questions, but that's what came up in my mind.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:43 am

Black Cloud, thank you.
Black Cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:59 am
How would you justify IC that certain players are untouchable?
I don’t know. I’m sure that someone could find a way. I’ve seen many much less plausible things than that happening in the game every day, that no one ever complains about. For example, is it any less plausible than no one being able to do any damage to anyone in the library, or all the the time that characters spend doing nothing but standing around chatting, whispering, and arguing, while they’re genning, waiting for teachers or for some event to happen, under a very thin layer of rp and sometimes none at all?
What would be the overall benefit/risk of this to the individual and the rest of the player base?
Some people might like playing it that way sometimes. There might be people whose rp would add a lot to the game for other players, but who would only play if they could play that way.
PVP is not as big of an issue as some make it out to be.
I’m not sure that it has ever been a big issue for anyone but me, and it isn’t a big issue for me any more. Even so, I’m suggesting a PvE-only option for the reasons above.
What if a player decides to change their status at some point, for whatever reason? Would it be possible or is it permanent?
My suggestion is for it to be permanent for each character. Each character that a player creates can be PvE only, or not, permanently, but no character can change from one to the other.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Lu Chaos » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:21 pm

Yea UL isnt the game for PVE only. Its about social roleplay game that is suppose to rival RL. We are even suppose to be able to kill each other as the original creator intended. Go join Alliance and enjoy PVE all day and be unharmed.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Bort » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:52 pm

:?: but why :?:

I personally believe that threshold should be destroyed; and there should be one sanc room should exist with stack on damage timer for staying in the room to long. To much time is spent with the threshold area by everyone, myself included... recently, newlies keep running in and it its exciting because they go out and explore and do stuff.

What i see is new life coming in and they are just visting a nursing home or geriatric club.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:44 pm

Lu and Bort, thank you. Seriously, that’s very helpful.

One question is, if we had a possibility to create characters that can’t do damage to other player characters or be damaged by them, how many would there be? I’m guessing less than one in ten. What do you think? Would that spoil the game for you if ten out of 100 player characters could not do damage to other player characters or be damaged by them? I don’t know how it could be explained IC, but *if* it could be, would it spoil the game for you to have that many PvE-only player characters in the game?
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:28 pm

Bort wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:52 pm
:?: but why :?:
Are you asking what my reasons are, or what reasons there could be that might appeal to you? One of my reasons is that it might be more fun for some people to play that way sometimes. Another reason is that there might be people who could add a lot to the rp for everyone including you, but who would only play if they could play that way.
Too much time is spent with the threshold area by everyone ...
I agree.
... recently, newlies keep running in and it its exciting because they go out and explore and do stuff.
Farlong hates the chat rooms, and goes out and explores and does stuff, without PvP being any incentive for me at all. It doesn’t discourage me much, but it certainly does nothing to encourage me.
What i see is new life coming in and they are just visting a nursing home or geriatric club.
If I’m right that there would be less than one in ten PvE-only player characters if we had that choice, and if it could somehow be explained IC, would that make things any worse than they already are?

If there are people who are attracted to this game because of the possibilities they see in the rp, and who might add a lot to the rp for everyone, but who don’t like the PvP, then we might have a lot to gain and little to lose by letting them opt out of it. Otherwise, even if they like the rp enough to play in spite of the PvP, their heart won’t be in the PvP, and they might resent it, and that detracts from the game for everyone.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Tentacle » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:50 pm

or all the time that characters spend doing nothing but standing around chatting, whispering, and arguing, while they’re genning, waiting for teachers or for some event to happen, under a very thin layer of rp and sometimes none at all
This sounds elitist and yucky. I have been frustrated before and trapped in this mindset so let me share a valuable lesson...

What Schism taught me in SoT, I didn't want to hear at first. When I did hear it, it changed my enjoyment of the game for the better. Everyone who plays the game is on their own curve. Some players write novels without a second thought about what they're doing. Some players are really proud when they have a chance to work in some clever emotes. Still, other players, live for the social aspect. All types of players and stories are acceptable.

For every type of storyline and player, Underlight offers a scene. It's one of the things about the game that remains awesome. The game world itself has been inclusive since before being inclusive was a thing. Now, do we get it wrong sometimes and crap all over that inclusivity? Yes. Absolutely. Human beings can be monsters. That is OUR problem and fault, not the coding.

If you do not see the content you enjoy, create it.

And remember, everything in the game is "Roleplaying" - even if it doesn't impress you. Even if you think it's shitty. There's someone trying, or not trying, on the other side of the screen. If you don't enjoy a particular little bubble of content, move along.

BE the change you want to see.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:27 pm

Tentacle, thank you, and I’m glad for you making that point. I think that most players most of the time, including in the FPS, PvP, level grinding, chat rooms and player-to-player socializing, are playing in good faith, and respecting the rp, and none of that has to ruin the rp for anyone. My point was that I don’t think that having at most one in ten player characters in the game that can’t do any damage to the others, or be damaged by them, would have to ruin the rp for anyone, any more than any of that.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:44 pm

Tentacle wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:50 pm
All types of players and stories are acceptable.
For every type of storyline and player, Underlight offers a scene.
Currently that does not include the possibility of opting out of the PvP, without being confined to the sanctuaries. Would you agree for the inclusiveness to include that possibility?
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Arnaya » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:03 pm

This is a really dicey proposition unfortunately. Something like this, as a signal to other players, that wouldn't carry quite the issues.... would be a flag or other note to the players name in the "Who" list that denotes someone who is uninterested in PvP. That's all, just a simple flag or change of the colour to let other players know that the player would prefer not to be part of PvP scenarios. Otherwise I can see this being Really badly abused otherwise.

To do the hard coded thing, to keep them actually Completely out of PvP... they would have to be unable to affect other players at ALL with their arts or equipment. In ANY shape. So, no restoring collapsed hunting partners, no nothing. Even Recharge/Reweave/Combine/Ward/Shatter would have to be functionally unavailable to the character. Otherwise, you have the invincible res bot type of situation, where the character would support their PvP friends... and there would be Nothing that their opponents could do about it. The PvE character could shatter a hostile forces wards, antidote their poisons, restore people, repair and rearm their friends top tier equipment, etc.

So they would have to be literally be an RP only character... basically making advancement a moot point. At least past about 3rd sphere (that would let them get into most places in the game, excepting the Palisades and the Unknown. All of that isn't even getting into the area where the PvE character just runs their mouth endlessly at someone they don't like... and there being zero way for their target to shut them up or otherwise give some consequences for their action unless a GM switched the character from PvE to normal.
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Yuritau » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 pm

The only way for it to be not brokenly unfair to everyone else is if they literally could not interact with the game in any way other than talking and emoting. Even Give would be too much. They could stand in a battle and give fresh items to whoever they pleased, or interrupt people with the the yes/no give window.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:30 pm

Arnaya, thank you for spelling out some possible issues. That gives me a lot to think about. Thank you.
Arnaya wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:03 pm
... a flag or other note to the players name in the "Who" list that denotes someone who is uninterested in PvP. That's all, just a simple flag or change of the colour to let other players know that the player would prefer not to be part of PvP scenarios.
So they would have to be literally be an RP only character ...
That might be good enough for my purposes. I’m not sure that possibility would appeal to many players, but I’m not sure it wouldn’t. Actually that possibility might exist already. If there are players who don’t want to participate in PvP, most or all the other players might be able to see that, and be willing to accommodate it in their rp.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:31 pm

Yuritau wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 pm
The only way for it to be not brokenly unfair to everyone else is if they literally could not interact with the game in any way other than talking and emoting. Even Give would be too much. They could stand in a battle and give fresh items to whoever they pleased, or interrupt people with the the yes/no give window.
Agreed.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Tentacle » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:48 pm

They would have an avatar, description, ability to talk and emote. They would have the following arts and no others: Join Party, Locate, Sense, Know, and Newly Awakened

Do you think that would work with the idea you're envisioning, jimhabegger?
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Black Cloud » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 am

There are some good points being made. What about damage to and from mares. If a player is not able to inflict or receive damage from dreamers, what would be the difference that would allow them to hunt mares? Or would this also be off the table? If we look at some of the belief systems, trapped souls n all, this is something to be taken in to account. That opens the question of how would that character advance. There are other ways to gain experience, but by taking dreamer/mare hunting out of the equation, you're left with only dreamer to dreamer bequeath or houses to award experience. This can be done, but could also be a huge hassle. Nonetheless, it's up to the dreamer to chose. At the same time, a new dreamer would have no idea what they're getting themselves in to. This new role would be best played by alternate character who start off with a plan. Also, I can imagine many trolls taking advantage of not being able to take damage. It seems like this could be a separate focus altogether, because why should one Seer be different from another? Or one GK who does extra damage vs another GK who can do no damage at all?

There are more negatives that come up than positives. For example, much of the knowledge that our characters acquire comes from learning and training our skills. It's a reason to go out and learn, test, and possibly improve what we have. When a character does not have the ability to use most of the arts which can impact other avatars, then where would their knowledge and experience come from?
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:18 am

Tentacle wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:48 pm
They would have an avatar, description, ability to talk and emote. They would have the following arts and no others: Join Party, Locate, Sense, Know, and Newly Awakened

Do you think that would work with the idea you're envisioning, jimhabegger?
First I want to say that after considering what's been said, I think now that all the possibilities I had in mind might already exist, if most players are willing to allow room in their gameplay for players who don't want to participate in PvP at all, and who conscientiously avoid supporting anyone else's PvP in any way. I think that maybe they are.

What I had in mind was to have an option in character creation to make it permanently impossible for that character to damage other player characters or to be damaged by them, but that they would still be able to damage mares and be damaged by them. I see now that all the arts that can contribute to fighting would have to be disabled in relation to other player characters, but for my purposes in this thread they would still need to have some arts that they could use to fight mares. I've started another thread to discuss possibilities for people who don't like the fps at all, but in this thread I want to discuss possibilities for people who do like the fps, but who would like to opt out of the PvP. I'm not sure that there actually are any people like that, but there might be, and if so, some of them might possibly add a lot to the rp for everyone.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:13 am

Black Cloud, thank you. Your post gave me a new idea. The option to create a PvE-only character could be limited to players who have already leveled one character to second sphere.

The idea of a new PvE-only focus looks okay to me, but I don’t think it would be necessary.

What I was proposing was an option in character creation for the character to be permanently unable to do any damage to other player characters, or to be damaged by them. I see now that all the arts that facilitate fighting would need to be disabled in relation to other player characters, but for my purposes in this thread, the character would still need to be able to fight mares.

After all this discussion, I think now that the possible benefits might not be worth the time, effort, and possible adverse effects of coding it into the game. I’m satisfied now with just trusting players to allow room in their gameplay for people who don’t want to be part of any PvP.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Lu Chaos » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:42 am

Dude.. I say this in the most helpful way.... If you xont want to pvp stay out of pvp situations. Sit in threshold all day and dont come outside. Underlight isnt like any other game. Its a game where you actually CAN be hurt or killed. Its a game where if you make one social mistake you become hunted by entire houses. If PVE only was created it would ruin not only the storyline but the realistic aspect and immersion of the game. Its a bad idea for a game like this which gives you freedom... My question is... How is being damaged stopping people from roleplaying? There are ways for you to PVE already and not be damaged by anything. You should really use what is in game already. Roleplay whats happening. People who cannot be damaged would be the fakest thing to ever hit Underlight.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:23 am

Lu, thanks for sharing, :D

(edited to add the following)
Seriously, I was hoping for your comments on this. I was curious to know what you would think about it. Thanks.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:08 pm

Lu Chaos wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:42 am
If you xont want to pvp stay out of pvp situations. Sit in threshold all day and dont come outside.
What I want is for people to be able to opt out of pvp and still have access to the whole city, without being confined to the sanctuaries. I'm not sure that the possible benefits of coding that into the game would outweigh the time, trouble, and possible adverse effects. In any case I think that might be possible already, without coding it into the game. I think that even you :P might be willing to accommodate that in your rp, if you see that a player really doesn't want to do pvp at all, and conscientiously avoids facilitating anyone else's pvp. I'm not asking for any promises. I'll just see for myself in the game.

Of course if I walk into the middle of a pvp battle, I'm not hoping for people to try to avoid hitting me. I got floated that way once, and I thought it was funny, and that I well deserved it. I was looking for Gilly at her house stronghold, and I didn't know that they had just been attacked by the Deltros. I was wearing the Deltros colors even though I wasn't a member, to protest against people stigmatizing all the members for what a few of them might be doing. Zsa Zsa and Haddi saw my colors and asked me if I was Deltros, and because of a blooper in my response, they thought I said yes to that, and i was instantly floated. That didn't spoil anything for me at all, I thought it was fun, and it fit very well into my rp.

I was worried for a while that the pvp would ruin the game for me, but I don't think now that it will be a problem for me, personally. Even so, if there are people who want to opt out of the pvp without being confined to the sanctuaries, I want that to be possible for them.
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Yuritau » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:02 pm

Honestly, what you're asking for is straight up impossible without fundamentally and irrevocably changing the very nature of the game. You are asking for Underlight to stop being Underlight and instead be a different game. You are asking for a 20+ year old game and its existing community to suddenly change simply to support a play-style it was never intended to support.

Underlight is supposed to be a true roleplaying game, consequences included. A hard-coded PVP opt-out is in reality simply a consequences opt-out. That is anathema to 'true roleplaying'.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Sidas » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:37 pm

The social rules of Underlight will generally protect a true pacifist character. This would cover somebody like a Taroneh Afsoon from Lyra. They are usually protected by everyone and as such safe from pretty much any conflict. This wouldn't be a blanket application to AoE just because you get too much of a range of people, some of which try to use pacifism as a shield. This can also be evidenced in the regular acceptance of non-violence in Chimeric, which is something that I don't even think Lu Chaos has violated.

tl;dr; True pacifist characters have nothing to worry about from other players because they are protected by everyone else.
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:53 pm

Yuritau wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:02 pm
You are asking for a 20+ year old game and its existing community to suddenly change simply to support a play-style it was never intended to support.
Intended by whom? Lyra? Koiware? What community are you talking about? Certainly not all the people who play Underlight, because I am one of them, and you are certainly not talking about me. What you’re saying looks to me like saying that I’m not part of whatever community you’re talking about, and I’m not welcome in it. Is that what you think and how you feel ?

I haven’t seen anything in the Underlight documentation, past or present, that says that the game is or ever was intended only for people who are volunteering for PvP. I haven’t seen anything in the documentation that says that making *all* the player characters fair game for PvP is part of some official definition of “true roleplaying” in Underlight. Obviously you and some others want it to be that way, but just as obviously there is at least one player who does not want it to be that way, and never has, namely me. Are you saying that for you, it’s your way or the highway? Are you opposed to any discussion at all about possibly having some player characters in the game that can not be targets for PvP?

If I ever find out that Underlight is and always was intended only for people who are volunteering for PvP, or that making *all* player characters fair game for PvP is and always has been part of some official definition of “true roleplaying” in Underlight, then I’ll abandon this discussion. Otherwise, my purpose in this thread is to discuss the possibility of having some player characters in the game that can not be targets for PvP.

I’m not proposing to remove PvP from the game. What I was proposing is the possibility of creating characters who can not be targets for PvP, but I’ve reconsidered the idea of coding that into the game. I’ve said all I want to say about that. The providers and developers can take that idea or leave it, and do whatever they want to with it.

What I’m discussing now is the possibility of players *voluntarily* excluding characters that aren’t volunteering for PvP, as targets for it. I think that might already be how it is, more or less, at least enough for my purposes. However much that thought might alarm you, I don’t think that would really spoil your fun at all, if you ever gave it a chance. Maybe you could try it some time, if you haven’t already. I’ve tried your way. Are you willing to try mine?
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love.
It's the only thing that there's just too little of.
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone."

- Hal David, Jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach
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Re: Option to create a PvE only character?

Post by Yuritau » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am

jimhabegger wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:53 pm
Yuritau wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:02 pm
You are asking for a 20+ year old game and its existing community to suddenly change simply to support a play-style it was never intended to support.
Intended by whom? Lyra? Koiware? What community are you talking about? Certainly not all the people who play Underlight, because I am one of them, and you are certainly not talking about me. What you’re saying looks to me like saying that I’m not part of whatever community you’re talking about, and I’m not welcome in it. Is that what you think and how you feel ?

I haven’t seen anything in the Underlight documentation, past or present, that says that the game is or ever was intended only for people who are volunteering for PvP. I haven’t seen anything in the documentation that says that making *all* the player characters fair game for PvP is part of some official definition of “true roleplaying” in Underlight. Obviously you and some others want it to be that way, but just as obviously there is at least one player who does not want it to be that way, and never has, namely me. Are you saying that for you, it’s your way or the highway? Are you opposed to any discussion at all about possibly having some player characters in the game that can not be targets for PvP?

If I ever find out that Underlight is and always was intended only for people who are volunteering for PvP, or that making *all* player characters fair game for PvP is and always has been part of some official definition of “true roleplaying” in Underlight, then I’ll abandon this discussion. Otherwise, my purpose in this thread is to discuss the possibility of having some player characters in the game that can not be targets for PvP.

I’m not proposing to remove PvP from the game. What I was proposing is the possibility of creating characters who can not be targets for PvP, but I’ve reconsidered the idea of coding that into the game. I’ve said all I want to say about that. The providers and developers can take that idea or leave it, and do whatever they want to with it.
A play-style that avoids PVP by choice is, as I have said before, completely fine and there has been a long history of it in UL. What is not fine, and has never at any time been supported by any incarnation of UL, is some characters being 100% free of consequence, simply by choosing an option at character creation. That is what asking for the ability to completely opt out of PVP at character creation means, whether you intended it that way or not.

The only supported way to completely opt out of PVP is to stay in sanctuary. Going outside of sanctuary makes PVP possible, just like the real world where going outside makes it possible for someone to punch you in the face. Is it likely? In both cases, that depends almost completely on how you behave. If you are kind and courteous, you can reasonably expect not to be assaulted. If you are rude or aggressive, the chances go up. That's how society works, and that's what true roleplaying in UL is: a small, fully functioning society, as it can best be represented within the mechanics of a game engine more than 20 years old.

You're talking like the possibility of PVP makes it inevitable. Why would assume that to be the case?
jimhabegger wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:53 pm
What I’m discussing now is the possibility of players *voluntarily* excluding characters that aren’t volunteering for PvP, as targets for it. I think that might already be how it is, more or less, at least enough for my purposes.
As Sidas said above, this has existed in UL before, many times over the decades. Taroneh Afsoon is a standout example, as her character was beloved by many, but she is far from the only example.
jimhabegger wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:53 pm
However much that thought might alarm you, I don’t think that would really spoil your fun at all, if you ever gave it a chance. Maybe you could try it some time, if you haven’t already. I’ve tried your way. Are you willing to try mine?
I have no idea where this comes from but it is both highly insulting and completely uncalled for.
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