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Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

This is a game for roleplayers. We want your ideas how how to build the better game. Post your suggestions here.
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Neil
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Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Neil »

This may be a sensitive topic to those who have played UL for years and have worked hard, putting in countless hours, to get where they currently are in the game. It may also be sensitive to how UL differs itself from other games. However, I'm still throwing out the suggestion to see what others think.

Multiple times I've heard people say, the dream is most active between the hours of X and Y. X and Y are normally hours much beyond where I can stay up and still maintain a family and career. I want to be able to enjoy the game as I so please, whether there are others dreaming or not. I also don't want to lose what makes this game unique. One of unique traits of UL is the teaching system. Heck, it's even put on the homepage, "The teaching system in Underlight is a unique feature not found in other games." Although it is not my intent to remove its uniqueness, I think an overhaul on the advancement system would be helpful to new dreamers and old dreamers alike. I've personally experienced this unique system over the last 20+ years, not in all versions of UL, but in several. That being said, as special as it is, I ask myself, if this is my dream, then why am I limited by someone/something else? Why must the levels of my major, minor, and DS arts be restricted to someone else requesting me to do something? How come it is not automatic based on my energy level? The game is heavily reliant on other people. Again, a unique feature. However, if I log on, I want to know I'm able to do something rewarding for my character.

It is of my opinion a task should not be required every 10th level, sphere or art alike. Art levels should be able to match the current orbit of a player without additional tasks between them. Non-focused arts should continue to cap at a set level though (29 is fine in my opinion). A player should be able to spend their time in the game trying to grow on their own character, (especially when no one is logged on) without a barrier. There are multiple times when I just want to go spend some time hunting or improving my arts, but when I'm maxed, I have to seek a task or work on an existing one to then just max it again and do another task. As the levels get higher, the tasks become even more player reliant. It starts to become more work than fun. Although I'll admit, many of my tasks are pretty fun!

So the question becomes, how do we overcome this stalemate while still maintaining a teaching system?

Some of my personal thoughts and suggestions:

1. Teachers are sought for training/learning new arts, how to play the game, learning more about specific arts, general education purposes, creating new arts. (Random thought: All focus arts, major or minor, should be taught by a teacher of the same focus.)
2. Teachers no longer need to plateau arts for other players. Once a player learns an art, they can practice and raise it up to their current orbit (Major, minor, and DS only). The ease to increase an art may need to be made more difficult.
3. Teachers can sphere based on supports, all new arts have been learned, and all major/minor arts are at maximum levels. Otherwise, completely get rid of sphere tasks and no limit as players level (up to the max orbit).
4. Tasks can be written to gain XP not otherwise easily attainable by hunting. The level of XP could be based on the train level and limited per day, possibly not tasked more than once a week.

At the end of the day, I want to be able to enter the game, run around with a purpose and logoff feeling I advanced my character. Whether that is via strength or story line.

Thoughts?
Umm... Neil
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Raas
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Raas »

An overhaul here would be quite welcome.

My personal perspective - I've played for 20 years or so now and as an adult with wife/kids/house/business etc., its difficult to justify spending much time on tasking, and I only do it because I have to, not because its an enjoyable gaming experience (no the problem isn't the tasks themselves, its simply the entire mechanic of being beholden to other people to advance).

BUT - There is also the consideration that for many of us older dreamers, the game isn't really *for* us anymore. Could be the younger folks still love the grind, who knows?

Image

Regardless, would love to see a more streamlined system that has many core arts be self-learnable, with higher power arts attainable only through traditional tasking. You could also tie in essence collection with art plateaus, make folks "pay" for their self-plateaus.
~Ra'as
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Yuritau »

Raas wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:05 am An overhaul here would be quite welcome.

My personal perspective - I've played for 20 years or so now and as an adult with wife/kids/house/business etc., its difficult to justify spending much time on tasking, and I only do it because I have to, not because its an enjoyable gaming experience (no the problem isn't the tasks themselves, its simply the entire mechanic of being beholden to other people to advance).
The need to task for every tiny little advancement (and especially ALL THE HOOPS you need to jump through for sphere tasks) directly enforces stagnation and at least for me directly results in less time/effort spent on roleplaying.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Arnaya »

I wouldn't suggest completely removing the plateau requirement.... but perhaps granting 3 plateau's or so each time a character gains a sphere? Or as rewards for in game activity and events, or involvement. In addition to the option to quest for them. Or perhaps only require quests for every Odd plateau in an art instead of each one?

Just thinking of ways to streamline things, without completely discarding one of UL's most distinct and unique features.
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Yuritau »

Putting the option to plateau arts with RP points back in would help, if the costs were reasonable. I think most minor arts should cost 1 point per plat level. locate 30, 3 points. DT 80, 8 points. etc

naturally some arts just wouldn't be available to plat through points. Forge, train, etc. Just use the self-platting to alleviate some of the overwhelming burden of needing to task for EVERY LITTLE THING.
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Neil
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Neil »

Thanks for everyone's feedback so far! Again, the idea was not to necessarily remove the uniqueness of the teaching system, but come up with a better gaming experience. Especially in a world of instant gratification. I expect newlies, and even myself based on limited time, to want to grow at the same rate they grew starting out. Although every game tends to get more difficult with time, this one seems to hit an exponential flat line around 4th sphere. I am in my 30's and I empathize with the comment that Ra'as made regarding a family, career, etc. It's why I haven't been able to dream as I once did.
Yuritau wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:00 pm Putting the option to plateau arts with RP points back in would help, if the costs were reasonable. I think most minor arts should cost 1 point per plat level. locate 30, 3 points. DT 80, 8 points. etc

naturally some arts just wouldn't be available to plat through points. Forge, train, etc. Just use the self-platting to alleviate some of the overwhelming burden of needing to task for EVERY LITTLE THING.
I think this would at least lead to some good progress toward the efforts! I like this idea too.
Arnaya wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:07 pm I wouldn't suggest completely removing the plateau requirement.... but perhaps granting 3 plateau's or so each time a character gains a sphere? Or as rewards for in game activity and events, or involvement. In addition to the option to quest for them. Or perhaps only require quests for every Odd plateau in an art instead of each one?

Just thinking of ways to streamline things, without completely discarding one of UL's most distinct and unique features.
Right, Arnaya! I really don't want to get rid of the entire thing, but I do want to brainstorm how we continue to grow if the effort and time is put in without needing those same dreamers to be available during 'my dream time'. Essentially a growth option without others.
Yuritau wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:02 pm The need to task for every tiny little advancement (and especially ALL THE HOOPS you need to jump through for sphere tasks) directly enforces stagnation and at least for me directly results in less time/effort spent on roleplaying.
I agree regarding the idea it directly enforces stagnation. And although most of my tasks do require a roleplaying effort, I'm looking to be able to just 'game' without completely roleplaying too.

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts from the Koi team on this topic. Curious if there has been any discussion around the teaching system. Given the recent gifts may have been toward just that. Most of it seems to help balance out the newlies; however, I have still benefited from it, and it was the first time in a long time I felt a reason to come back the next day and get those particular arts maxed out!
Umm... Neil
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by OfF KiLTeR »

I think having the ability to use RP to plat minors and DreamSoul arts is a good idea. House arts and Majors should be immune as well as train and forge.

The rates that RP are seemingly earned will mean that tasking will still be done for a lot of these arts, but at the discretion of the player. Obviously Join Party 90 is not everyones cup of tea, but it will give dreamers some choice.

I also like Arnayas idea of granting plats at sphefe. Namely I think that the Focal art should plat with the sphere. Maybe just tie the focal art to the orbit? I don't know the logistics of this in a programming sense, so it's not my place to say whether this is or is not viable.

Finally, using the mission boards for reporting would reduce the common issue of players missing each other, or getting busy with other disruptions. Mission boards would allow for monitoring the task AND the report as well.

It may even be preferred over time as the report process can be sped up.

M
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Inzoum »

I'd be in favour of having quests at fewer plateaus, like: Learn -> 20 -> 40 -> 60 -> Every 10 after that ? Keep the endgame endgamey, but anything that makes catch-up easier for new players and returning old players who don't have as much time to invest as they did in their teen years...

The Gift of the Oracle is a step in the right direction, in my opinion, a lot of it should be made automatic to some extent, though
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Arnaya
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Arnaya »

Well, even with Oracles gift... there's supposed to be some actual Teaching that happens, not simply the platting or granting of arts. So, I'm not in favor of automating a lot of it with the exception of arts like Give, Show, etc that have literally ZERO game effect with improvement and are unlikely to ever have a game effect.

But reducing the number of quests required, I'd be fine with. I do understand some of the reason for requiring plats with every 10th... as it encourages individual specialization to a degree... though realistically, most people of any given focus, focus on the same arts... so it's effect is pretty limited.

Every 2nd plat would probably be ideal for the more modern era, but requiring them to go to a teacher for it and there to be some form of lesson (either given by the student to others present, or the teacher to the student) should still be required. Honestly, people are pretty ignorant of art updates and the like... and that sort of thing provides a means to keep people up to date about art changes and little tricks for arts usage that are otherwise extremely rare or get forgotten about.
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Bort »

The teaching system is the biggest problem with UL.

1) houses form allegiences with players not based on rp but based on halos and those teaching
2) There is no real tension that can be had if i am punching someome in the face then turning around to appease them for a plateau
3) The current model doesnt support any true house tension. Which imo is vital towards those new to the game as such.. that is why most that like tension really just toss away the idea of beliefs and turn things into he said she said squabbles.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Bort »

There should be house teahcers that teach their house mates offensive arts and spheres.

Freespirit teachers that teach spheres and limited offensive arts up to a certain level

To get higher than x sphere with x arts as a freespirit should unfathomable unless lots and lots of work is put in.

Teachers should not be limited by focii when teaching nor train level.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Bort »

Also teacher should get x amount of xp when a art is granted or sphere that isn't considered a gift. A substantial amount to help with higher sphered teachers growing in orbits.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Uthanatos »

I really support the "House of Purpose" model rather than the old "House of Faith" model so I don't really subscribe to house teachers and forced conflict, but I do think teaching should be kept separate from politics. Refusal to teach an individual, based on politics, should be grounds to have your halo stripped. Teaching is not a weapon, or a tool to make your house more powerful. It's a game mechanic to promote interaction and give people a reason to actually interact outside their tiny little clique. I would agree that a great many arts don't get platted because platting them is all but pointless, but that's a whole different thread. I'd suggest a scaled response, giving each dreamer something like RP points but not, for a "level up" scenario when they sphere, allow them to instantly self plat 3 arts or something, these would not be able to be saved up through spheres, so you can't hit 8th and have all your arts hit 80, but it would make sphering more impactful and reduce the task load for whatever YOU consider to be your primary arts
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Bort »

I just feel like a house shouldnt sacrifice what a house believes, just for the in game leveling system, to appeal further to others.

If a house claims "this is what we are" but then alter it to become appealing just for membership and the leveling system.

Then imo the leveling system is a hindrance.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by OfF KiLTeR »

I have played on both sides of the politics fence. What we don't have, right now, is the luxury of 200 teachers running around with 2 MT's of each focus in any given house.

I am also of the opinion that teachers have the right to decline teaching. Otherwise we are forced to support something that we don't necessarily condone. Teachers used to have the strongest voice in the city. It gave the individuals more flexibility in shaping the activities and participation of individuals as well as larger focus events.

I think teaching SHOULD be part of the game politics, as it is the only thing that can really even the playing field.

Allow teachers to vote with their tasking. The GM's are there to step in if the inmates start running the asylum, if things get ridiculous... but they should be there for a break glass in case of emergency type scenario.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Brother Timothy »

In the old underlight the RP system could be used to bypass the teaching system. You could use RP points to learn or plat an art or even give yourself a sphere. I felt this was a good thing. Actually I suggested many years ago that RP points be granted to every dreamer for every minuet they dreamed. This would allow those dreamers who dream at odd times the opportunity to advance. Since RP points can be exchanged for Exp it would also allow the pacifists to advance as well, even if they weren't part of a house.
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Re: Overhauling an Old but Unique Teaching System

Post by Yuritau »

Brother Timothy wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:49 am In the old underlight the RP system could be used to bypass the teaching system. You could use RP points to learn or plat an art or even give yourself a sphere. I felt this was a good thing. Actually I suggested many years ago that RP points be granted to every dreamer for every minuet they dreamed. This would allow those dreamers who dream at odd times the opportunity to advance. Since RP points can be exchanged for Exp it would also allow the pacifists to advance as well, even if they weren't part of a house.
Yup, re-enabling the plateau an art option for RP points is the best and fastest way to alleviate some this problem, imho.
Yuritau wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:00 pm Putting the option to plateau arts with RP points back in would help, if the costs were reasonable. I think most minor arts should cost 1 point per plat level. locate 30, 3 points. DT 80, 8 points. etc

naturally some arts just wouldn't be available to plat through points. Forge, train, etc. Just use the self-platting to alleviate some of the overwhelming burden of needing to task for EVERY LITTLE THING.
I'll elaborate further.. I firmly believe 1 point per plat level is the best way to implement RP point cost for minor arts and dreamsoul arts. Majors could be 2-3 points per plat level, depending on their potency. And the really iconic majors (reflect, return, ward, firestorm, razorwind, combine, recharge, abjure, trap nightmare, etc) could be up to 5 points per plat level.
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