Endgame content

[Gerroz]

Just to get that over with; there is no way in hell I am blasting a Gatekeeper I know has a reflect over 30. I would be damaging myself greatly and put myself in a position where a lucky lvl 50 hit could collapse me in a single blow.

If in a huge fight with many dreamers I would redirect my blast to everyone -other- than the few gatekeepers with decent reflect. In one on one there's little to no way to use blast at all, which puts me at great disadvantage against any gatekeeper over orbit 50. As orbit 80! when you think about that, it is pretty absurd and shows that gatekeepers are not weak at all.


with that explanation in mind, I am more for giving them arts like I mentioned, (which plays on the strengths they already have) rather than additional combat arts (well except thorns)

this explanation should also show that it is well above time to add higher chakrams than lvl 50s. An orbit 70 dreamer should be just as much stronger than an orbit 50 dreamer as he is over an orbit 30. Linear advancement.


Don't let this get you down Albert, try tweak your ideas or come up with new ones

[Star Scream]

I prefer your arts as well GeRRoZ. You should know better then to think I was mad about these posts. I was bored at work and this gave me something to debate about, that's all. I think everyone who ddoesn't have a GK character wants to claim that the "GK Bonus" has a way bigger impact then it really does. +4 at 5sphere for a GK makes them do 5 to 54 damage with a 50. To support your idea about higher level chakrams I would point out that a Level 70 GKer can hit for 7 to 56 damage and a 5th sphere GK can hit for 5 to 54 so that seems way to close for such a huge difference I'm terms of advancement.

5th sphere maxes at what 1599999 xp? Orbit 71, which is the highest Ive ever had a character, is around 10,000,000. The Idea that the only difference between 5th and 7th as a GK is Reflect is very discouraging and a big reason why a lot of guys like ghalleon never pushed past 5th probably. A higher level chakrams couldn't hurt but would have a big effect on combat which is always concerning for most of the player base.

[Star Scream]

OK, thought of another new art that I would want.

Summon Amulet=Orbit 70 GK Major
Cost 40 willpower
Works the same as summon prime only it pulls Gatekeepers amulets back that they have lost or loaned to others. Could make the art were you had to be in the same room as the person holding your amulet and make it really slow at low levels and moderate at level 70. Making it slow to moderate creates the possibility of getting your lost amulet back but also creates a strategic side that if somebody is avoiding you, you'll have to set up a trap were your final evoke cone comes up right as they enter the room. Otherwise when you are trying to get it from them they have enough time to either run, wake, or attack.

If you don't like that one I have another one.

Pass= Orbit 70 GK Major
Cost 40 willpower
Works the same as Amulet except it has a duration on it. Levels 0-9 has one charge, 10-19 has 2 charges, 20-29 has 3, and so forth. This art give a Gatekeeper the ability to create a amulet for his party members in combat that can only be used a certain number of times then it vapes. Benefits for GK is not being screwed for eternity if one gets lost so your more willing to give them out. Benefit to enemies is that since you createthese less fearfully your enemy has a better chance of getting his hands on one and having a temporary way past your wards. Allies also benefit since your more likely to give them one. Under the current format SS never really uses Amulet with the fear of losing one always looming, ttaking a chance shattering with a shield on to get out if things get hot or evoking Return seems safer.

[Gerroz]

personally I think amulet should have charges instead. unplatted the amulets have 10 charges, and each plat doesn't increase the charges but decreases them, to protect the Gatekeeper's interests. 9 charges at lvl 10, 8 charges at lvl 20 and so forth. If an ally runs out of charges, the gatekeeper can just give them another amulet. This way gatekeepers wouldnt be eternally screwed by losing an amulet but tere is still a risk involved.

the summon amulet is a pretty good alternative if the change to amulet isnt made. I would howver only like one of the two solutions, not both at the same time

[Celelond]

Maybe a sense amulet art?

Like sense dreamer, you can sense where in the dream your amulets are.

I have no idea how this would plat, but seems to me might be of use even maybe at low lvl's.

[Sidas]

In SoT, amulets all had 1 charge, no matter what your amulet was. They could be recharged though.

Originally in SoT they had declining charges based on art level. At some point, some asshat changed it to be 1 charge.

[Gerroz]

certainly can't be a GM with a gatekeeper PC who did that :p

With Eros' details Summon Amulet sounds like a great art which won't disturb game balance. I like it.


Eros I agree, we dont need a whole heap of 8th and 9th sphere rooms. a few of those is sufficient. I was hoping to see one or teo entire planes which would be 5th or 6th sphere, which half the game alreafy is. sort of like how the rifts used to be something to reach for

[KirtesOmathear]

Personally I dont think Gatekeepers need arts for 7th or higher to boost themselves. 1 to 50 damage plus the GK damage boost. All it takes is a few lucky shots to take out anyone and a reflect at 7th sphere is ridiculous. Thats just my thoughts though.

[Star Scream]

Kirtes, the idea is to pretend like your not satisfied so that you can try to get more. Your not helping. It also doesn't help thatyour character has level 20 arts at 4th/ 5th sphere .

[Star Scream]

Thanks for the support on these ideas guys. I'm glad that Eros and some others expanded on my ideas and I find your version agreeable. The idea of the art/arts wasn't just to make things better for GKs but really to add a fun dynamic to the game that can benefit both sides of the coin.

Now that I know I have some support, when we go live I'll talk to the GM team and try to implement creating these arts IC.

As far as planes goes. Lyra didn't intend on us ever surpassing 5th sphere but they admitted that the game was never really "finished" being developed. It would be great if the new team was able to plan it out and finish the game arts and levels wise at least.

[Sidas]

Code: Select all

Blast Nightmare
DreamSeer
Orbit: 65
Cost: 10 (or whatever Trap costs)

Allows a Seer to damage a nightmare at the same damage ratio as Trap Nightmare. It doesn't raise the strength of the essence, however.

It seems silly right now that a Seer can't use blast against mares over Bogroms. This would open allow a Seer to effectively do what an SM can in taking down a mare without directly engaging while still not allowing them to solo a Horron.

[Star Scream]

Yeah, it seems like it would make more sence to have a art that worked like trap but was a insight art that could collapse nightmares. I didnt really ever consider the fact that DS's wouldn't use blast on lesser mares.

[Miriel]

Code: Select all

Blast Nightmare
DreamSeer
Orbit: 65
Cost: 10 (or whatever Trap costs)

Allows a Seer to damage a nightmare at the same damage ratio as Trap Nightmare. It doesn't raise the strength of the essence, however.

It seems silly right now that a Seer can't use blast against mares over Bogroms. This would open allow a Seer to effectively do what an SM can in taking down a mare without directly engaging while still not allowing them to solo a Horron.

As far as I can recall, Seers used to be able to use Blast on all levels of mares and the rest of the foci cried foul because no one else could take down a mare so quickly and cheaply.

Then SMs found that at higher levels of Trap, they could take out Agos and Shams if they (or their party) did a bit of damage to start with. They're still the only ones who can collect essences with added strength, even if they have to work fairly hard at mares above bogrom.

FS can take on Shams and Horrons without having to engage directly, as long as their Firestorm or Razorwind is high enough. But that's a long way from being a cheap way to take one down. It also requires a room where either party members can distract the mare, or the FS can find a protected corner or level--otherwise you'd float long before the mare.

If Seers get a form of blast which can damage Shams and Horrons, perhaps GKs should get a similar art: 10 Will, Spear (or some other appropriately physical sounding item) which can also do damage to these mares at a distance.

Then, of course, FS could make a case for something like "Spark" a 10 Lucidity fire dart which would do comparable damage.

Of course, to be of any real use, both Spear and Spark would have to be as fast as Blast Mare. (I'm assuming Sidas envisions Blast Mare as being as fast an evoke as regular Blast.)

[Sidas]

Not really. I imagine it being trap minus the strength addition to the essences. Blast is only such a fast evoke because of its minimal damage/cost. Can't give it more damage at the same speed without a balance issue.

[Gerroz]

Personally I am more for specialization of each focus rather than making them increasingly similar. I think it makes for a more interesting game when the playstyle is more diversified between each focus. I would rather see arts that play on each of their characteristic properties

[Cuero]

I think some of the easiest arts/changes to implement are convenience-based or Mare-based. Eros' idea about the GK chakrams is a good idea that will affect both solo and group play, with seemingly little unbalancing. I think the most realistic suggestions will be ones that fall in those two categories (convenience/mare).

One of the biggest problems that we will run into with any changes outside of that is balancing and how quickly a balance issue can be remedied. In Shades of Truth, someone thought "Hey, shield durability, let's play with that," and it created an issue that ruined the game and that Eros mentions every chance he gets

The other major concern with changes and how they effect balance is when you look at our population and our development team. In World of Warcraft, they have an entire division that just sits around all day playing with balance tweaks, they test it, implements it, watch how the numbers change. And most of what they're looking at is player reaction, the ragers, the criers, the ones who love it, and all of that feedback.

The sampling size the Team would have is what... 7 million people smaller, and only maybe 50% of our population actively uses the forums? For us, we have what, maximum 3-4 coders and the rest of the Team probably doesn't know anything about coding? And UL isn't their full-time job, so a change that affects balance could take *months* to get sorted out, or it could never get sorted out (e.g. Shields).

All that being said, I'm not discouraging coming up with interesting ideas. Just know that I'm sure every idea (once it appears feasible) will probably take a long time to code, a long time to implement, a long time to monitor the effect, and a long time to change or fix. So come up with something more likely to be implemented that doesn't radically change the game, because odds are it's not going in.

[Star Scream]

I am in agreement with GeRRoZ and Eros for most of their points. I do feel like we need to keep each focus unique and have the arts that are added be focus specific. Each focus should have pros and con's that fit their focus traits. For example the Gatekeepers hhaving Reflect and a GK bonus makes sense because they are a barbarian type class. Having an ability like Blast in any since wouldn't fit the Gatekeeper style. With that said, I still think we have a few 7th sphere abilities that would make ssense for several focuses. The ones for Gatekeepers are ones I've previously mentioned that got a lot of positive feed back. Those being:

Art: Pass
Focus: Gatekeeper Major
Orbit: 70
Cost: 40 Willpower
Discription: Creates a temporary amulet that allows the holder to pass through the creators wards with a limited number of charges on it.
Duration: 1 charge unplatted, each plat adds an additional charge ( this could work like forge were it allows the gatekeeper to set the number of charges on it. If he has a level 70 Pass he could choose to put anywhere between 1 and 8 charges on it).

Art: Summon Amulet
Focus: Gatekeeper Major
Orbit: 70
Cost: 40 Willpower
Details: Offensive art so it would not work in sanctuary. Evoke speed would be like Shatter and improve at the same rate as Shatter. Evoker would need to find a way to trap his target or time it perfectly in order to have the final cone up as the enemy entered the room and then the evoker would click on the enemies name in the who list that he thought had his amulet. The art would pull the amulet to his pack the same way summon prime would work.

Art: Sence Amulet
Focus: Gatekeeper Major
Orbit: 75
Cost: 20 willpower
Details: None offensive art that when evoked in the presence of another dreamer who has one of your amulets would tell you who has one. Evoke speed could be like shatter and platting the art could increase the evoke speed.

All three of these arts would not be needed. You could have any combination of two or even just one. These are really just rough drafts, they could be tweaked a bit to be more appropriate or more functional. I think all three of these arts would add interesting new dynamics without effecting gameplay mechanics.

I also feel that Fatesenders get shorted early but by the time you get high level forge, Firestorm, and them Razorwind they are rewarded for the wait. The same goes for GKs with Reflect and GK bonus, Dreamseers with Blend, Invis, Recharge, Combine, and Level 70 Blast, but Soulmasters deserve a 7th sphere present. With this in mind I came up with:

Art: Regen
Focus: Resilience Major
Orbit: 70
Cost: 40 Resilience
Details: 2 minutes plus 2 minutes per plat ( none stackable exactly like Reflect). This art would work like Meditation but would continue while the player was moving and fighting.
+4 per 10 seconds. Plating wouldn't change the Regen amount but would increase the duration. At +4 per 10 seconds that equals 24 dreamsoul a minute. This could all be debated and altered to be more agreeable. I just think a level 70 SM should have some form of Regen to aid them in battles. They really don't have anything to strive for right now. It could even work exactly like Meditation and that would give them 12 dreamsoul a minute.

Let me know what you guys think, especially about Regen. I was looking at the Soulmaster's arts list and spoke to Starfall today about the SM high level arts and it really seems like they need something like this.

[Krodoc]

If we're on the topic of potential GK arts, I'd like to see a set of arts learnable at 5th Sphere that will apply protective arts to anyone in your party at once. Same evoke times and durations as the individual ones. Just convenience, really. It sucks arting 5 people up and wasting your Will elemens.

I'd also like to see an art that allows the GK to drain the elemental strength from his own other elements to replenish his Will. So basically, I'd select Resilience, and evoke the art and it would drain my Resilience and add it to my Will. Same with Insight or Lucidity.

A mass ward art would be cool. Perhaps twice as long as the current ward evoke time at each plat respectively.

Summon Amulet would be a cool idea that was mentioned already, but I feel a better solution is to have an art that a GK could evoke on target dreamer and it gives them access to their wards for a certain amount of time based on the art level. In order to the keep the balance and risk of losing an Amulet, this art could not self-target. So a GK would still have to carry his own Amulet to pass through his wards.

I have more ideas that I'll bring up later.

[Ghazgkull]

If we're on the topic of potential GK arts, I'd like to see a set of arts learnable at 5th Sphere that will apply protective arts to anyone in your party at once.

Good news for you, at least. This is OOSM's house art.

[Starfall]

What about arts/talismans that only hurt or are only useful while hunting mares, not dreamers? Like an art that absorbs 5/10/15...% but only from mare attacks? Or one that makes X# of sham/horron flames bounce off a dreamer as if it were a bouncy chak that hit a wall?

I know Wish was polling us on ideas for how to make sham/horrons huntable for non-Seers.

[Sidas]

What about arts/talismans that only hurt or are only useful while hunting mares, not dreamers? Like an art that absorbs 5/10/15...% but only from mare attacks? Or one that makes X# of sham/horron flames bounce off a dreamer as if it were a bouncy chak that hit a wall?

I know Wish was polling us on ideas for how to make sham/horrons huntable for non-Seers.

You act like Seers can walk in and float them. Generally even seers need a second person.

[Krodoc]

If we're on the topic of potential GK arts, I'd like to see a set of arts learnable at 5th Sphere that will apply protective arts to anyone in your party at once.

Good news for you, at least. This is OOSM's house art.

Sable Shield works only on one person at a time, and requires a Power Token. I'm talking about an art that would effect everyone JP'd to you, at the same time. One evoke, 4 people feel it.

[Lunk]

When it comes to end game content... Why dont they make a new series of 2D nightmare frames. avatars are flat 2D images that "rotate" in the game and are not even 3D. Now that SoT died I think its safe to say I was trying to work on it but it never took off and really didn't get picked up at all. never was able to do it right. it looked nice i have a few images saved but i guess it was just "too much" to put a roleplay together for and to code into the 4 locked beasts types in the code. but really id like to see what diabolical things Lyra can come up with. with End Game content needed more then just Horron. thinking of something like a beast that can woop a sphere 9 dreamer. if there so comes a time that a large number of us are all sphere 7 8 and 9 i think this could actually be pulled off without many complaints. a beast that dreamquakes a lot, will make you look behind you randomly and all kinds of razorwind and etc. as a room full of sphere 8 dreamers might woop some major butt this could probably be a challenge. something like this could be very interesting if dreamers are all way way up there and powerful near the end of next year or so. Just an idea and since this is the suggestions board and a end game content thread this is my thoughts on this and thats all i got to say. ~Lunk~