Endgame content

[Gerroz]

This came up in the thread about accelerating new players. Instead of letting it hijack the other thread lets make a new one, as was suggested by Eros.

Underlight has been going for what 16 years now? Many players hit 6th sphere during the first two years of the game. Since then, there's been extremely little endgame content added. Players who hit the higher spheres don't get much more to reach for in Underlight as it is today. Yes yes, roleplaying is the most important, we have all said it time and time again and we all agree. However advancement is there for a reason, and it should not basically halt around 5th/6th sphere.

Since I started playing right before the turn of the millenia, there's only been a handful of arts added to the game. To this date, Razorwind is the only art past 6th sphere. There's more than a handful of players past 6th sphere now and they need more arts to keep the ladder going.

There's no chakrams beyond level 50 either, which basically means that the power in battles has a steep curve up to orbit 50, and then it flattens out a lot. The nature of advancement should mean that the curve keeps climbing, and that someone a sphere higher than you, hits harder than you (if they have the items)

One of the things I loved about advancing early on in Underlight, was that some portals were closed to me. I had to advance in spheres to be able to see them. It was one of the things I was really looking forward to. After 3rd sphere, there's nothing new to see, except a library room maybe. We should have some more rooms or planes that's locked to a higher sphere, to add a feeling of accomplishment to the game.


I'd like to ask Koi-Ware for a response to this:

We all know that you are busy making the game playable and to launch it, so this is of course your priority at the time. However, how is your team equipped to the following things (-after- the game has been successfully launched with minimal bugs):

1) making additional rooms
2) Making additional arts
3) changing existing arts
4) adding items

other things can be added by the rest of you, that's what I came up with on top of my head right now.


Note: I was hoping someone else would make this topic instead of me, because I realize that it may make me look selfish to ask for this, being on top of the foodchain. I'm asking you to look past that and see that this would benefit the game as a whole, to give us all more to reach for once we're up there.

[Star Scream]

If new higher sphere areas were created I'd like to see some high level gens in those rooms. The higher the sphere level a room is, the better the gen is.

I would also like to see some of the house arts have their similar focus arts. For example, Shadow Step is basicly Invis but any focus can use it as long as they are a house member. I know that if Break Covenant was a 7th sphere dreamsoul art, we would all want it. The same goes for peace aura. You know how bad I would want to be able to learn that, endless usefulness for a character like Star Scream or better yet Kaer GeRRoZ. So, those are a couple ideas for 6th and up learnable arts from me. I'm sure we could come up with some unique ones that didn't alter the game mechanics and everyone would get excited to have.

I really play Underlight for the drama of storylines like most of us still around, but having something new and interesting to strive for is always a good thing. The harder and longer it takes for us to get something the more satisfaction you get when you achieve it.

[Star Scream]

I'm in complete agreement with everything Eros points out. The fact that every focus in Lyra UL has something to complain about farther proves the significant level of balance that the GM team of that era was able to maintain. Lyra's team obviously took into account every avenue before they implemented any change. Its just like the example that fatesenders at low levels get the short end of the stick but we can all agree that a level 70 FS with arts and high level forge to match is probably the most powerful character.

Its very tempting to make changes and "improve" the game but I think we were fortunate to have SoT because it created the opportunity for a lot of testing creative ideas and really seeing what was good and what was bad for the game. It also taught us that a lot of things we thought we wanted in the game, turns out we don't want them after all.

I am always excited for new arts or new items but like Eros eludes to, as longas they make ssense and don't completely alter the mechanics of the game. From what I've seen from our current team, they feel the same way. Changes like the one made to forge are the kind of positive changes I like to see.

[Nio Tak]

I have to agree with Eros as well

[Gerroz]

I too am in agreement with you Eros. Just as Star Scream, I am of the opinion that the Lyra game was pretty well balanced and that battle should not be changed in any major way. However we can add things that won't completely change the way it works.

Eros, I also agree that huge increases in chakram damage would make Gatekeepers way too strong. But not if we only increase the lowest of the damage in 50s. Your suggestions are pretty solid there.

For arts, your idea for gatekeepers about a mass ward is one example I like. It doesnt tip the balance of the game in a major way. A long evoke time here, maybe 30 seconds or something, would make this a tactcal art.

here are some suggestions that I feel would not change the game mechanics, but would be nice things to reach for in the game at the very highest of levels:


Gatekeepers:

65- Return Other
Cost: 25 Willpower (2x Return)
Target: Other (Target), Creates token / Token Holder (Default)
Duration: 1hour + 10min/level (Evoke Speed: Very Long)
Effect: 1st Evoke: Creates a “Teleport” token; token can be passed to another player; 2nd Evoke: Teleports token holder to the location token was created. Design of the art requires other player's acceptance of the token to be affected by the art to prevent abuse.
(stolen from Kard)

70- Thorns
Cost: 30 Will
Target: Self
Duration: 10 seconds + 10 seconds/plat(?)
Effect: Damages Dreamers and Mares within a certain radius of the Gatekeeper (Horron aura)


75- Mass Ward/Lockdown
Cost: 20 Will per portal or 60 will
Target: Any non-planar portal in the room
Duration: 10 minutes(?)
Effect :wards all non planar portals in the room


80- Pull
oost: 30 Will
Target: Other
Effect: Pulls target to your location



Soulmasters:

65- Unstrap
Cost: 25 Resilience
Target: Other
Effect: De-equips the current shield from a dreamer


70- Toxic Aura
Cost: 30 Resilience
Target: Self
Duration: 10 seconds + 10 seconds/plat(?)
Effect: Poisons those who comes too close.


75- Cleanse
Cost: 70 Resilience
Target: self
Effect: Removes all negative effects from self. (Useable also when Paralyzed)


80- Disarm
Cost: 30 Resilience
Target: Other
Evoke time: long
Duration: 5 seconds + 5 seconds/plat
Effect: Removes the ability to use chakrams for the duration



Fatesenders:

70- Scare Aura
Cost: 30 Lucidity
Target: Self
Duration: 10 seconds + 10 seconds/plat(?)
Effect: Scares those who comes too close.


80- Havoc
Cost: 80 Lucidity
Target: All in room, not in party
Duration: See Below (Evoke Speed: Longest)
Effect: Affects all in room, not in party with the evoker, with all possible afflictions



Dreamseers:
(On the contrarty to your opinion Eros, I think Dreamseers is the easiest focus to come up with things for that won't tip the scales of battle too much)

65- Analyze Ward
Cost: 5 Insight
Target: Ward (Target) (as per Shatter's targeting a ward)
Duration: Instantaneous (Evoke Speed: Extremely Fast)
Effect: Shows information about a target Ward. Level 1: Name of Creator; Level 15: Level of Ward; Level 30: Number of people who passed through the ward; Level 50: Way the ward was passed; Level 75: Name of people passing the ward.
(stolen from Kard)


70- Clairvoyance
Cost: 10 Insight
Target: Non-Planar Portal (as Ward)
Duration: Instantaneous (Evoke Speed: Fast)
Effect: Shows information about an adjacent room. Level 1: Number of occupants; Level 25: House Affiliations; Level 50: Names
(stolen from Kard)


75- Cloak
Cost: 30 Insight
Target: Self (Default) - Party
Duration: 10sec + 10sec/level
Effect: Evokes Invisibility on Party


80- Spy
Cost: 50 insight
Target: Self
Duration: 5 minutes +5 minutes/plat
Effect: Removes the dreamseer from the who list. If any aggressive act is made by the seer, he reappears on the who list


80- Listen
Cost: 20 insight
Target: Self
Duration: 10 seconds + 10 seconds per plat
Effect: Enables the dreamseer to hear whispers in the room he is in for the duration


85- Teleport
Cost: 70 Insight
Target: Self
Evoke time: 30 seconds
Effect: teleports you wherever you wish. only useable outside sanctuary



in my suggestions here every focus has been given an aura art at orbit 70, except Dreamseers, cause
I havent been able to come up with an aura art for insight yet. Suggestions?


These are suggestions that dont change the game mechanics and won't completely tip any scales. More suggestions are welcome

PS: the Kois didnt answer my last thread about how able they are to make new arts or change existing ones. A response ot that would at least let us know if this is at all possible

[Sidas]

FYI

"Spy" and mass ward are nearly impossible to implement in UL unless Kois are magicians.

[Gerroz]

the GMs can be completely invisible, even on the who list, so it should be possible. Mass ward I dont know if is. But these are only suggestions that I feel won't uinbalance the game

[Starfall]

Even if it were possible, not appearing on the Who list is one function I would never want to see implemented for players.

[Star Scream]

Honestly, I think these are really amazing ideas and suggestions. I really didn't think that I would ever support changes on this kind of scale and I'm not saying I'm completely sold now, but these are some really creative ideas and I'm intrigued. At the very least your list atleast gives the GM team some ideas if they are capable or interested in expanding the game going forward.

Starfall, there is a key we can press that says who is nearby I believe. It's a useless key and probably forgotten but if a art was created that made you invis on the who list there could always be a counter somehow. Something that would be easily overlooked in favor of the DS but a way to detect them. Just an idea, that would be a super cool art that anyone with a DS character would want.

[Star Scream]

Just a side note, GeRR. I think the reason the GM team hasn't really addressed these threads up to this point is because right now they are really just a lot more focused on trying to get the game running properly and all the bugs worked out. This will probably be something they might address going forward after we get past beta. I was going to mention that to you earlier but I havn't run into you in a few days in Beta.

[Gerroz]

Thanks Albert, I was hoping these would be well recieved. They should not impact battles in ways that changes the entire method of the fighting system, and yet are very interesting. Some of them have extrordinary roleplay potential.


Spy, which Starfall says she doesnt like, has possibly the biggest potential of them all. Imagine a high level dreamseer sneaking into celebration halls to spy at meetings, or other gatherings they are not invited to. A very high risk/high reward kind of thing, especially if they have the art of Listen as well. I do not think that spy is overpowered at all. If the Dreamseer makes any kind of aggressive move, the effect falls, and if he whispers, the whisper can be heard (ref the 1 in 10? whisper notice effect). Also it makes Fatesenders the perfect spy hunter. A well placed firestorm or two will make the dreamseer scream, clearly beginning to weaken. And then he is in big trouble both physically and politically.

Perhaps its function was better explained now and more acceptable, Starfall?


Waiting for more contributions


Albert, I know that the bug fixing and everything around getting the game ready for launch is Koiware's priority and I dont expect any of this in the game in the near future. This is me being proactive and having the ideas out there in good time

[KirtesOmathear]

What about a art for Dreamseers that allows them to see what arts you have on. An maybe a mass version of the art at high spheres that sees into other rooms and tells you what arts everyone has on.

I know Eros mentioned in beta that ID curse should identify the arts someone has on.

[Sidas]

the GMs can be completely invisible, even on the who list, so it should be possible. Mass ward I dont know if is. But these are only suggestions that I feel won't uinbalance the game

1. The GM Client is -very- different than the player client.
2. GM Invis only works when a GM invokes it away from any other actor (character) so the 'Spy' art would never come off unless the evoker was alone.
3. To actually implement this, it would require very low level client->server changes that can't be done with how the base-lyra implementation is setup. It was very slightly possible in SoT but the changes that allowed for it caused a lot of other issues.

As for mass ward, it really is impossible based on how ward itself works. Ward would have to be completely rewritten to allow for this sort of thing to occur.

[Star Scream]

1. The GM Client is -very- different than the player client.
2. GM Invis only works when a GM invokes it away from any other actor (character) so the 'Spy' art would never come off unless the evoker was alone.
3. To actually implement this, it would require very low level client->server changes that can't be done with how the base-lyra implementation is setup. It was very slightly possible in SoT but the changes that allowed for it caused a lot of other issues.

As for mass ward, it really is impossible based on how ward itself works. Ward would have to be completely rewritten to allow for this sort of thing to occur.

Just as Kard did probably 15 years ago, GeRR is just attempting to open a dialogue about expanding the game. I think all the arts and ideas listed in this post are just "ideas" and not really a definitive answer to the problem. These are good ideas but if the GM team took them and made completely different arts (ones that were the indeed possible with the game client) then the goal would still be considered achieved as NEW and EXCITiNG abilities that drive the player base to continue advancing.

Keep in mind when you are not liking somebodies ideas that they are intended to prevent complacentcy and not a hostile take over. I think a few people might be a little intimidated because its GeRRoZ making suggestions as opposed to Selika or Kard.

It is a fact that a lot of players stopped playing UL due to complacency. Not us hardcore role players! I know, but it would be nice to attract more people to play with us that have lost interest because they got everything they previously wanted out of the game.

[Starfall]

Perhaps its function was better explained now and more acceptable, Starfall?

Nope. Combat effectiveness is the least of my concerns with it. It's entirely about the privacy issue involved. And in fact, I missed Listen on the list, which I've got serious issues with for the same reason. Just because a person is curious doesn't mean they should have the ability to violate the privacy of others.

Another matter to consider is that knowing that these arts don't exist is a big deterrent to certain kinds of IC/OOC crossover. If suddenly a person could plausibly claim they (or someone else) heard it while Spying/Listening when in reality they heard it entirely OOC, the floodgates open and such stuff becomes impossible to keep track of.

[Star Scream]

I got what your saying.

[Gerroz]

I don't expect everyone to like my ideas, just as I don't like every little idea of everyone else, so that is no problem for me. Especially not if they take their time to explain why they do not like it, and even better, come up with corrections which would make the idea more feasable. It is impossible to please everyone.

What's important to me is exactly what Star Scream and Eros pointed out; to expand the game in the higher spheres in ways that will not change the ways of battle, but still gives something to reach for.


I hope more ideas will come, and that we will see some of them implemented. Get the creativity going people

[Tember]

I back up whatever Gerroz says because he is hot irl

[Star Scream]

I agree with Tember and Kailee's assessment.

[Gerroz]

.........

Not the thread hijack I expected but ok. Thanks!




Now, come up with some ideas.










No Gina, not ideas about me, about game content. Yeah, you're busted.

[Star Scream]

Gatekeeper arts I would like to have and that would make sense while not altering game mechanics could be:

#1. A art that prevents Blind at orbit 70.
#2. A art that prevents Deafen at orbit 70.
#3. A art that prevents abjure at orbit 80.
#4. A art that prevents Poison at orbit 75.

Thinking along those terms. You could even make these arts like Chamele, were they are self evoke only to keep it were people who are not GKs still can't prevent those offensive arts unless a GK forges them a alt or charm and with forge requiring power tokens it keeps things balanced to an extent or even make it like Invis were you cannot forge items with these effects at all. As a Gatekeeper controller can tell you, the idea of being able to get 8th sphere is virtually impossible because you basicly rely on xp from agoknights unless you are in KoES and have Shadow Step.

These are just a few ideas that i thought up while trying to consider coding issues as well as agreeable to the player base as well as GM team.

[Star Scream]

Eh, I'm not game for this Star Scream.

First - Blind is prevented with Vision. Carry an Alt or have Seers on your side.

Second - Preventing abilities is called Reflect as a GK'er.

Third - Get in cahoots with an SM that will Antidote you or join OoSM for Sable Shield!

Like I said, GK'ers already have Reflect. Adding the ones you just said, would make them way too over powered.

Edited to add:
Also, it's not just GK'ers that don't have Invisibility. It is possible to get XP and not just by Agos. It all depends on who you hang out with and become friends with or enemies with lol.

The point of these arts are to make a Gatekeeper moderately more powerful. Reflect is not a solution for preventing arts it is a way to slow down being the weakest focus at high spheres. These abilities are novelty additions if nothing else, as you stated there are ways around most of them already like a vision alt which is easier to use then evoking an art to prevent blind. As it stands currently a 8th sphere DS like GeRRoZ can collapse SS, even with reflect on, in about 10 seconds using nothing more then Blast. In addition a art that prevents blind still gives an advantage to a DS since preventing blind and having vision are two different things. Preventing blind still allows a DS to blast you while they are Invis and if you don't have a vision alt you have to flee which was my intent with the suggestion.

The only art I suggested that is realisticly argueable is the one that prevents Abjure, which is why I listed it as a level 80 art and I did expect it to be considered controversial since its the only one that is actually a art that people would die to have. The others are barely desirable.

[Sidas]

An 8th sphere of any focus should be able to tear through any 6th and below dreamer. He's 1 sphere below the maximum; there's no reason you should be able to take him on alone and even hope for survival.

As for being weakest? I lol at you.

[Star Scream]

GK is the only focus without an offensive art that they can utilize. When I say the weakest focus at say 7th sphere which is realisticly the highest anybody other then GeRRoZ will get, I mean it from that perspective. I'm also meaning it in respect to the idea that a level 70 abjure is likely to remove all protective arts including Reflect. I get your point if you want to argue that SMs would be the weaker of the two if you wanted to make that argument. However, just for fun and since Sidas gets a good laugh out of it, let's evaluate what you seem to think makes GKs so overpowering. For the record, nobody is arguing that GeRR shouldn'tbe stronger, I was responding to the idea that GKs were overpowering when clearly a 8th sphere DS can collapse a 7th sphere GK in 15 seconds.

Reflect as well as the GK "bonus" do nothing more then level the playing field for what would otherwise be impossible and unfair odds. Don't stop reading yet I'llsay even more outrageous things before II'm done.

When a Gatekeeper evokes reflect on himself he still has tough odds. The first thing he has to do is art up beforehand so that his reflect doesn't disable him/her self. Then after the GK goes into battle he hopes that the fear of Reflect prevents evokers from attacking with Blast, Firestorm, Abjure, and so forth. The best he can hope for is a level playing field by getting others to engage in hand to hand combat were the Gatekeeper hopefully has superior fighting skills as well as a superior pack in order to win. Oh, but he has a GK bonus that will make him win you say. Yes, a GK will hit for +1 damage for every gatekeeper plat. This means at level 70 he has +6 to his attack but this requires him to actually hit you. In addition, you have up to 3 SMs in another room restoring you while a GK has to be completely self reliant because restore will... Yup you guessed it, Reflect off of him.

So, what exactly makes the Gatekeeper ( who by the way has the same odds against every other focus) the most powerful? A DS for example can still Blast anyone other then a GK. As a matter of fact, the other focus dreamers have an advantage in one way or another against anyone but a GK.

Therefore it is my oppinion that the arts I suggested still force the Gatekeeper to rely on his hand to hand combat skills to win a fight. The change made is that these abilities eliminate the last advantages over the GK that the other focus dreamers have left, which is probably why they are easily opposed and as Silas stated earlier, at 8th sphere you should be able to own other dreamers but in the current format a GK would still almost completely rely solely on Chak and item juggling skill.

[Star Scream]

An 8th sphere of any focus should be able to tear through any 6th and below dreamer. He's 1 sphere below the maximum; there's no reason you should be able to take him on alone and even hope for survival.

As for being weakest? I lol at you.

Sorry about the confusion but Star Scream is 7th sphere. Maybe I didn't make that clear because I was trying to create examples everyone could possibly understand or relate to. I agree with your opinion that a 8th sphere dreamer should be superior to lower sphere dreamers. That is actually the point of my argument. Gatekeepers at any sphere rely entirely on chak skill and the arts I listed take away advantages other focuses somewhat have over them.