new characters starting at higher orbit

[Gerroz]

Hey fellas

One of the most important things for Underlight will be to attract new and -keep- new players in the game. When a new character is made, starting at orbit 0, it takes them a very long time to actually matter. Yes I know, roleplay is the most important, and I agree. However, in practice, their influence and significance is not grand because they are so far behind.

Underlight is such an aged game now and so developed for many characters, that I think that new characters should start at a higher orbit, to boost their significance from day one. I think it will be a lot more fun to play for our new players. For us oldies this should not be negative either, we have had years to get ahead.

Other games have done this also, world of warcraft for instance, allows new characters to begin at what? level 80 or something? Underlight could do this as well.

I suggest that newly made characters start at orbit 20, or maybe even 30, WITH a decent padding so they won't lose the sphere to the first emphant they meet.


Please discuss here what you all think about this

[Celelond]

Not sure about wow, but I do like the idea of allowing new players to enter the game a sphere or two.

The only issue I could see is them not knowing their arts, but from what I have seen very few read the read me codex anyway.

Taking into account the fact some of us are trying to being more Euro players in as well, I think this would help.

[Jiovanni]

This is my personal opinion and not reflective for anyone else within the community.

I strongly believe that if we began entirely new characters at higher orbits or even spheres, it would erode the entire Underlight experience. The argument that Underlight is an 'aged game' is invalid. Regardless of how old any game becomes, the experience remains the same that we all remembered from our own times in the past.

We would essentially be doing them a disfavor in terms of learning new arts, working towards being able to explore new areas, and the little things that a lot of us take for granted. This is essentially like drafting someone into a war and foregoing bootcamp altogether. I would be in favor of perhaps of a more accelerated learning curve but absolutely against ditching it all together. Giving new players shortcuts isn't going to attract them - it'll do the opposite.

Some tips on keeping players includes but not limited to:
- Interactive players that go above and beyond keeping other players engaged.
- Players that take the time out to help other players become familiar with the game.
- Active GMs in all capacities
- Innovative and engaging roleplays and storyline
- Conflict, et cetera.

Also, I believe you're entirely too focused on one end of the spectrum that you're entirely ignoring the other end. The game was never fully developed/finished. Once you reach 6th sphere, there isn't much more to look forward to with in the game. Simply giving new characters 2nd or even 3rd is placing them at the halfway point into an unfinished track which lends to my earlier point - players will leave earlier if they reach 'endgame' that much quicker.

Just my personal thoughts on that matter. However, I do like the original intent. I'm just not entirely in favor of the idea as presented.

[Gerroz]

You have a point here Jio, it may take some of the innocence of the startup away from new players, I give you that.

Saying that things could/should be fast tracked the first few spheres instead sounds good in theory but has never worked well in practice. Favoritism is called, some teachers are being called into questioning based on their tasks, and here we go.

[Sidas]

No sphere tasks until 3rd sphere! Debate Begin! GO GO GO!

I'd say 4th. :->

Or at least make them a learning experience instead of a stupid time commitment. I recall my first first sphere task was "Collapse this Bogrom". That was actually bloody useful.

[Star Scream]

I think making 3rd sphere the first sphere you have to actually complete a task for is a good idea, I actually was going to recommend this idea myself. We could make it a deal were a noon has to get a few supports for spheres 1 and 2 but no quest.

[Gerroz]

No sphere tasks or only collecting some support sphere tokens for the first few spheres sounds good to me. It would fast track new players to a meaningful level. I also see a lot less favoritism being alled here based on very different difficulties of early sphere tasks.

[Gerroz]

This is pretty good Eros, and could be used as checklists instead of tasks for the first three spheres. Old players who make new characters and use their old knowledge (we all know this happens) will be able to rush through this though.

This is something we can process IC also, in the teaching guild

[Celelond]

The problem with a check list is they are generally not adaptable.

The character cannot hunt, that should not stop them getting a sphere.

I agree with a knowledge check list, but not things like hunting, climbing ext.

[Gerroz]

Obviously you do not recommend an AoE type dreamer to hunt. Could instead require them to have knowledge of/a plan of how to actually gain enough XP to rise through future orbits and spheres without the use of violence.

There's other things to take into consideration also, which could be amendments to a sort of charter how to get through the first three spheres. Eros has a nice first draft here though, which can be worked with further in the game

[Celelond]

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

As well as a lists is well intentioned, they have a habit of causing tunnel vision, the hunting thing was an example, not a dig at Eros's post.

Another example:
All arts learned.

I have a character who is an elitist, he will/has not learned any arts that do not use his foci element, this might change as time goes.

Or know all the house beliefs.
We had a character before who rped only having about 3 minutes memory, anything over this was forgotten.

If we want to put something in place, it needs to be VERY flexible, and more importantly, the teachers need to be confidant they can be flexible.

[Miriel]

I'd agree that we don't want new players to feel that they're hopelessly behind the curve. Originally, UL was pretty well fleshed out up to 3rd or 4th sphere. By 3rd, you could go anywhere in the Dream. If you had any coordination or skill, hunting most mares was getting to be fairly routine, and you had enough arts that you could start to be somewhat useful in player conflicts.

Under those circumstances, it made sense to try to slow advancement: you didn't want people to outgrow the game too quickly.

In some ways, the game's never really recovered from that early design. But that ship sailed long ago. We now have characters who are 7th or 8th sphere, and we can't tell rerolls or genuinely new players that they're never going to catch up.

Gaming in general has tended to be mostly about building and advancing a character. People expect that a big part of any game is going to be getting stronger, getting new toys to play with. While we can push for people realizing that Clash is more about stories and RP than advancing, they still have to be able to get to a place where they can effectively join in the RP.

While I wouldn't go for quite so detailed a list as the one Eros posted, I agree that it's a good start. The trouble with a really detailed set of minimum requirements is that they tend to get set in stone as THE requirements.

Not everyone is going to be a great hunter or fighter, especially not at low spheres. There are those who simply aren't very well coordinated. There are those with less than perfect vision. (I knew at least one UL player who was legally blind and had real trouble with the sans serif type face) There are also those with other physical disabilities. (I knew one person who played UL for awhile who was quadriplegic and played with a stylus in her mouth.)

One thing I always included in my low sphere tasks was starting a bio of the character. Especially at first, it's not clear to a lot of players that there's a 2 layer RP involved. They need to learn that their character doesn't waken to the real world but to Cloudsbreak, a low tech world of mostly standard human people.

Lyra intended the focus of UL to be on the Houses, and never expected a real community of Freespirits to develop. It seems that the focus in Clash will again be on Houses and the conflict of beliefs, but again the players may surprise us. I hope that Clash can also be flexible enough to make a place where any player with good ideas on RP can feel at home.

[Gerroz]

This also brings up another thing, which is end game content. We truly need more of that also, to engage the older players. We need new arts at higher spheres and there is absolutely no reason why chakram power should stop at lvl 50. A 6th sphere should have more arts and hit harder than a 5th, that's the nature of advancement.

[Star Scream]

The only problem with level 60 and up chakrams is the fact that you would have about 60-70 percent of the community that could smoke darkmares in a battle setting if we all had level 60-80 chakrams. It's important to the stability of the game to keep Darkmares as the overpowering force. It's bad enough that a lot of us can singlehandedly smoke a daymare making them almost useless.

In the current UL setting with atleast 50 percent of the community at 6th sphere, Tehthu becomes a small threat when battling 4 level 60+ dreamers, one from each focus. If we had level 60+ chakrams, it would be overpowering.

I am in agreement for additional arts, if they make sense. I enjoy Underlight just as it is and I believe that as long as we have an active GM team that works with us on our roleplays and keeps an active RP in operatiom , people will play and have something to play for. I know that a lot of people out there still play D&D and Vampires the Macerade, and so forth. If they enjoy those games they would enjoy Underlight, they just need to know about it. If the GM team has a set day and time, like Lyra did in the early years, when they always have major stuff going on, people will play more actively in anticipation of those times. They'll play throughout the week to be prepared for that weekly major event, like it was on MPlayer.

[Sidas]

The only problem with level 60 and up chakrams is the fact that you would have about 60-70 percent of the community that could smoke darkmares in a battle setting if we all had level 60-80 chakrams. It's important to the stability of the game to keep Darkmares as the overpowering force. It's bad enough that a lot of us can singlehandedly smoke a daymare making them almost useless.

In the current UL setting with atleast 50 percent of the community at 6th sphere, Tehthu becomes a small threat when battling 4 level 60+ dreamers, one from each focus. If we had level 60+ chakrams, it would be overpowering.

I am in agreement for additional arts, if they make sense. I enjoy Underlight just as it is and I believe that as long as we have an active GM team that works with us on our roleplays and keeps an active RP in operatiom , people will play and have something to play for. I know that a lot of people out there still play D&D and Vampires the Macerade, and so forth. If they enjoy those games they would enjoy Underlight, they just need to know about it. If the GM team has a set day and time, like Lyra did in the early years, when they always have major stuff going on, people will play more actively in anticipation of those times. They'll play throughout the week to be prepared for that weekly major event, like it was on MPlayer.

Stronger chaks don't necessarily mean easier to defeat enemies. You have to keep in mind the ease of crossfire. In the wrong hands, a level 60+ chakram could destroy its own allies.

[Koi-Wish]

I am kinda liking the idea of no tasks/quests until 3rd Sphere. Or at worst minimal tasks/quests. Dont start folks at 30 but make it pretty much a piece of cake to get there. THIS would give OUR window to KEEP them once they hit 30. If we start at 30 we havent quite captured them - but a smidge of work and 30 quick orbits free arts later - its the communities job to have enticed them enough to stay.

Again, like Jio, I am not speaking on behave OF the team - but I like the concept of accelerated growth for newlies.

[CONMAN]

My opinion likely doesn't matter, but Jio nailed it on the head - totally. I understand the IDEA behind it, but it is the wrong angle to keep the new public interested. It is totally disenchanting, to say the least. The only thing I can really relate it to is if your parents bought you your first car. Sure, you really loved it and enjoyed everything it gave you, but you never REALLY appreciated it. But if you bought your own car, and invested the time to earn it - you'd appreciate it 100x more. My two cents.

I'd be really turned off if this was implemented.

[Yuritau]

There always used to be, and still should be, a sense of accomplishment for gaining a new sphere. First time I ever hit 3rd sphere I was actually quite proud of it, and not just because I could finally see these rifts everyone had been talking about. If you make it free or very nearly free to get third sphere, all that will be gone and nothing below 4th or 5th sphere will have any meaning whatsoever.