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Revisiting Maren Immunity

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Arnaya
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Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Arnaya »

Revisiting the Darkmare/Datoken immunity to Poison. While I do understand the difficulties involved, there are two suggestions I have that would alleviate the problem without making a Soulmasters Main battle art utterly useless against THE most common and equipment intensive opponents around (Which is ultimately the problem. With nearly every dark running around with 70 to 90 plat Reflect... and poison being useless... Soulmasters are basically limited to healing only, abjuring, or being less powerful gatekeepers).

So, all three suggestions that I have are here in sequence:
1) Remove the mares immunity to poison.
2) Replace said immunity with an Abjurable Sable Shield type effect.
3) Give Datoken Antidote, and Restore (Darkmares already have both arts at between 60 and 90 plat, depending on the mare) plus their natural regen... which is fast enough to seriously limit the damage done by a low to mid plat poison already. Especially once the additional "Regen" effect is added on.

Summary of Suggestion: Makes the mares vulnerable to poison, with additional work from the Soulmaster, and gives the mares a means of countering it when it is applied. A quick portal hop, Antidote, Restore... on with the fight. Just a suggestion for the next patch. Removing the mares immunity to poison is going to be the subject of the SM guilds next major project anyway :)
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PKChrisChan
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by PKChrisChan »

I believe Datoken should keep an immunity to poison. These things are extremely EXTREMELY weak in their current state. Forcing a daymare to stand stationary to Antidote repeatedly is futile. Datoken need immunity to scare on chakrams as well for 40k experience.

Darkmares immunity to poison, I can agree can be dealt with given the Frontal Immunity allows for art usage.

Though, Stormy darks are almost entirely impossible to hit. (*Cough* position update synchro/client side prediction)
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Arnaya
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Arnaya »

That's why the suggestion about giving them something like Sable Shield. It does make them immune, but not insurmountably. Daymares are kinda meant to be general run around rampage type things.... they arn't really meant to be "Kick the piss out of the PC's" type of things... though allowing people to start at Horron wouldn't be a bad idea there.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Uthanatos »

If datoken were given anti at 50 plat or so, it would allow them to evaluate the the balance between anti or fighting, and the anti would be fast enough to be functional in combat. I'd add to that, that they are worth the same thing as a maxxed 5th sphere dreamer. Now, one on one, most 5th sphere dreamers will expend at least one chak and most of a dreamsoul ellie dropping one and the more noncombat oriented dreamers still get dropped by datoken.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by coltdorsey »

To me it makes more sense for them to be immune to scare, not poison. If the poison immunity were removed, you could allow pmares to be healed for a percentage of the damage they do to player characters and npcs. This would promote more battle engagements rather than portal hopping and proposed art casting to avoid collapse and taking damage.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Arnaya »

coltdorsey wrote:To me it makes more sense for them to be immune to scare, not poison. If the poison immunity were removed, you could allow pmares to be healed for a percentage of the damage they do to player characters and npcs. This would promote more battle engagements rather than portal hopping and proposed art casting to avoid collapse and taking damage.
That's not a bad idea either, though I wouldn't suggest a large percentage of healing. 5 to 10% at the top end
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by PKChrisChan »

Arnaya wrote:That's why the suggestion about giving them something like Sable Shield. It does make them immune, but not insurmountably. Daymares are kinda meant to be general run around rampage type things.... they arn't really meant to be "Kick the piss out of the PC's" type of things... though allowing people to start at Horron wouldn't be a bad idea there.
Right but almost always daymares are outnumbered and there are many many MANY SMs in these dreams. That for one is balanced. Additionally, Taking 1-5+ Poison from Poison Cloud is quite overwhelming for these already weak creatures.
Uthanatos wrote:If datoken were given anti at 50 plat or so, it would allow them to evaluate the the balance between anti or fighting, and the anti would be fast enough to be functional in combat. I'd add to that, that they are worth the same thing as a maxxed 5th sphere dreamer. Now, one on one, most 5th sphere dreamers will expend at least one chak and most of a dreamsoul ellie dropping one and the more non-combat oriented dreamers still get dropped by datoken.
Moderate 38 chakrams that they shoot are not balanced one on one vs a fifth sphere dreamer. I use a forged scare 27 vs. daymares and was easily able to dispatch these things. They are pretty much free orbits. Forcing them to take a fifth plateau Poison Cloud/Poison evokation would only further weaken these things. I was third sphere at the time by the way.

Now on the topic of DarkMares, let's take in perspective of the power of untargetable arts such as FateSender room arts and house arts. I would imagine from a GM perspective that they considered this. Generally speaking, almost all darks keep high percent reflect up to even the odds vs. a greater number of dreamers. Now Fate Sender arts have severe targeting issues and are almost always avoided but house arts target non-house members. This is better than that which I previously mentioned because generally darks only really engage dreamers on their home planes(specifically yours since PC/DoL don't dream unless some GM event is going on).

My point is that Poison Immunity is the only thing that days go going for it and it is questionable for Darks because it would make Solo Darks (which they usually are) laughable at best.
Thunderman wrote:To me it makes more sense for them to be immune to scare, not poison. If the poison immunity were removed, you could allow pmares to be healed for a percentage of the damage they do to player characters and npcs. This would promote more battle engagements rather than portal hopping and proposed art casting to avoid collapse and taking damage.
Great idea. Now this is something that would work well.

Conclusively, I can understand the frustration you currently have with Darks, particularly stormy ones like Raichuelle and the huge nerf to Poison Cloud but consider that daymares AND darkmares have and how this would undermine their value as threats.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Arnaya »

That's why I'm trying to find some other way around things. Poison is the SM's main battle art, and their only damage dealing art (Not counting Draw, since you have to have the targets essence... and its 6th sphere). Darkmares, even solo ones, ARE a threat even now to smaller parties.

Daymares, once again.... are not really meant to be massive threats. Given that people can run a daymare for an hour solid (or more)... its not unusual for a fight with daymares to take a lot of supplies. And I'm sorry, but there are too many people that run Daymares that have their mare run as soon as they start losing... especially if they're losing to a solo fighter. I've even had them deliberately run into sanc so they wouldn't collapse to the players fighting them.

I don't know what anyone else expects when they run a Daymare, but when I run mine (Which is rare now), I go in knowing that he's going to float and I'm just looking to enjoy a good fight where I don't have to worry about supplies for once. Its nothing more than a "run around until someone floats me" thing. If your running an orbit 30 some odd monster against 5th/7th sphere skilled fighters.... floating is kinda inevitable. There's no reason to render a focus's main battle art Completely ineffective so the fight can drag on a little longer. Make the focus have to work a little more to pull it off, that's cool. Give the monster a means to counter it, that's cool too. But to make it utterly ineffective and useless... that's not quite so cool. We gave it a shot, but its proving (to me at least) not be working very well and completely undermines the effectiveness of one of the most populous focus's.

On the darkmares side of things, they already use House Arts from the closed houses and find time to stop even mid-battle against 3 or 4 people to evoke restore, abjure, etc.. while using Regen (Entrancement House Art effect) on top of their already high natural regen. At this point, Poison isn't crippling for Darkmares... with their natural regen, plus the Entrancement effect... even a 60 Poison Cloud would do an average of -1 to -3 damage per tic. Maybe the occasional bout where the dark loses 1 to 3 dreamsoul per tick for a couple of seconds. 70 Plat regen though heals (If the notes I was given about Entrancement are right) 9 dreamsoul per tic. 70 plat poison cloud does between 1 and 13 damage per tick (average of 7). If its regular SM poison, 70 plat does between 1 to 9 damage per tick. So even at its highest, it just counters equal level Regen. Average damage still has the mare actually healing 4 points per tic. That's assuming no GM specials are used.

Poison even now isn't a way to win a fight outright... but it is an SM's main damage dealing art. One of their keystone arts. Lets make it at least potentially usable against some of the main and regular enemies of the characters.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Sidas »

Poison is overpowered, especially against pmares. During the time from the OP poison implementation to pmares being made to be invulnerable, people would just evoke Poison and run into Sanctuary. It was ridiculous. That is one of the primary forces that led Pmares to start "sancing", I imagine.

I personally feel like Pmares should be more like Dark Mares these days. Let them have arts. Let them use items. Let them communicate and roleplay. This isn't 2001 and we don't have the playerbase that there was when they were first introduced. We don't have the same concerns of "OH MY -- Bladeblix knows who they're fighting and is cheating!!!" The GMs already monitor Pmare usage and can crack down (I imagine) pretty quickly if people are abusing it.

As for Dark Mares, the GMs are generally good at "leveling" the difficulty a fight to the participants. 1on1s are generally going to be a challenge. Small groups as well but they are usually kept to be "winnable". The times when I've seen this kind've go off the rails is when you either - a) Insult the DM or b) Start art spamming them. Those two things tend to send them into overdrive mode (like when Kruugaar just started art spamming Blast and Abjure a few months ago!)

I personally like the challenge and appreciate that people cannot just ezmode swipe floats through no effort. That, to me, cheapened things far more than anything a GM DM could do aside from portal hopping.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by PKChrisChan »

Arnaya wrote:Darkmares, even solo ones, ARE a threat even now to smaller parties.

Daymares, once again.... are not really meant to be massive threats. Given that people can run a daymare for an hour solid (or more)... its not unusual for a fight with daymares to take a lot of supplies. And I'm sorry, but there are too many people that run Daymares that have their mare run as soon as they start losing... especially if they're losing to a solo fighter. I've even had them deliberately run into sanc so they wouldn't collapse to the players fighting them.
DayMares are worth 40k/80k, formerly 50k/100k which is -way- too much for how easy they are. So in 30 minutes that is something along the lines on 200-500k in 4-5 engagements which is 2 orbits at 5th sphere!

For that reason alone they should retain poison immunity. 1-13 per tick would make me never play my day again because I'd float without having engaged anyone.

On the other hand, you should report those days who run when they are losing. That is a problem the GMs deal with. Poison on days isn't going to do much if they run inside a sanc and take insta 20 damage or let a Shammy float them.
Arnaya wrote: I don't know what anyone else expects when they run a Daymare, but when I run mine (Which is rare now), I go in knowing that he's going to float and I'm just looking to enjoy a good fight where I don't have to worry about supplies for once. Its nothing more than a "run around until someone floats me" thing. If your running an orbit 30 some odd monster against 5th/7th sphere skilled fighters.... floating is kinda inevitable. There's no reason to render a focus's main battle art Completely ineffective so the fight can drag on a little longer.

Right, I think that is a given. I play my DayMare every time I have minutes. From my inspection the more common mares: Rukar, Radush, Ranuk, Grozark and Fakar do not run or sanc float themselves. Regardless, just because Poison isn't working on NightMares doesn't undermine SoulMaster power in any way. Besides SoulMasters have much more threatening arts such as High Plateau Restores from inside Sanctuaries(overpowered) as well as Abjure. SoulMaster's power does not just lie in simple engagements. Did we also fail to mention that -supposedly- Poison eats up shields which drastically able to turn a fight? Or that SoulMasters can trap 900 strength and hour with low plateau traps? That means at least 18 Forged Scare 27s.

Don't even get me started on Recharge.
Arnaya wrote: On the darkmares side of things, they already use House Arts from the closed houses and find time to stop even mid-battle against 3 or 4 people to evoke restore, abjure, etc.. while using Regen (Entrancement House Art effect) on top of their already high natural regen. At this point, Poison isn't crippling for Darkmares... with their natural regen, plus the Entrancement effect... even a 60 Poison Cloud would do an average of -1 to -3 damage per tic. Maybe the occasional bout where the dark loses 1 to 3 dreamsoul per tick for a couple of seconds. 70 Plat regen though heals (If the notes I was given about Entrancement are right) 9 dreamsoul per tic. 70 plat poison cloud does between 1 and 13 damage per tick (average of 7). If its regular SM poison, 70 plat does between 1 to 9 damage per tick. So even at its highest, it just counters equal level Regen. Average damage still has the mare actually healing 4 points per tic. That's assuming no GM specials are used.

Poison even now isn't a way to win a fight outright... but it is an SM's main damage dealing art. One of their keystone arts. Lets make it at least potentially usable against some of the main and regular enemies of the characters.
Yeah, but they can potentially take 50 damage a pop if you so happen to hit their backs with a 50. Assuming they have 80-99 DreamSoul only a few well aimed shots would collapse them easily. Now what is making them really frustraing is how lag makes them near impossible to hit. Especially in larger engagements.

Also, I have never felt/seen the Entrancement ability used in all of my DarkMare engagements in this version of Underlight. Zaxun had it a few times I know. If the darks are evoking all of these arts against you then you must be pretty challenging for them.

Sidas wrote:
I personally like the challenge and appreciate that people cannot just ezmode swipe floats through no effort. That, to me, cheapened things far more than anything a GM DM could do aside from portal hopping.
Well said.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Cherokee »

When Poison was buffed, almost everyone stopped playing their pmares because of how powerful it became. Starting from the DA and taking time to run all the way up to where people are and being instantly slammed with Poison (and Scare :( ) and getting collapsed within a few seconds, just so you can do it all over again is irritating, to say the least.

Pmares cannot use elemens to heal like we can. I understand they are meant to be collapsed, but they -should- be somewhat challenging and take longer to float than that. As it stands now, I can just flame them or use forged chakrams. If it's not even remotely fun for the pmare players, they're not going to play them at all.

As PKChrisChan mentioned, they are worth quite a bit of XP. I think the GMs decision was to balance any abuse. I haven't seen a Day purposely collapse itself in a long time, but that is why we have the report function.

Also, pmares only get 30 minutes of play time if they start out as a Shamblix.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Uthanatos »

A huge portion of this is Darks rather than Days, Days are frustrating, especially for those that aren't front line fighters, on more than one occasion I've used lesser mares to collapse them simply because I don't carry the chaks to carry through those engagements. Personally, I find that the dark immunity to poison is frustrating not just as a SM but as a Calenturian. Calenture is a warrior house, charged with guarding the city, and yet, our house art is all but useless against one of the primary threats to the city. That is a serious problem.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Sidas »

Uthanatos wrote:Calenture is a warrior house, charged with guarding the city, and yet, our house art is all but useless against one of the primary threats to the city. That is a serious problem.
Except it was never used against DMs before it was incredibly OP. It being a "serious problem" is laughable. But fortunately for you I'm not the one that you need to convince. :-D
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Arnaya »

All of these points are why I was suggesting alternatives to outright, permanent immunity. I'd even be fine if Daymares got a full suit of protective arts at 30 minute duration (Auto-renewed on restoration) from Sable Shield (Or similar maren equivalent). Plus the ability to use Restore and Antidote. They already have shatter. Want to make them more challenging... set up a couple of rooms that regen them faster (Though that would encourage more running away when losing) or give them additional regen. Give them a flat 35% damage reduction as well, or make them ALL GK's for the damage bonus. Go with all of the above if you really want to boost them up *shrugs*

The argument that Sidas made about them being RP tools I would Strongly oppose. Mares arn't really meant to be allies and friends. To make them that, and allow full communication really undermines one of the main things that forces characters (RP wise) to nominally work together. The threat of mares is a story constant that makes the characters work together to some degree despite beliefs differences. Daymares are a part of that.

As for SM's poisoning and running (Since that seems to be a big thing for most people).... that's a fairly easy one to fix. SM's don't get experience for poison collapses unless they're in the room. I don't know if it was ever like that before, but it would neatly eliminate most of that issue. If people really feel poison is Too powerful, back it down a little.... I think it was even said in the patch notes that the damage would be tried and tweaked if needed. Instead of adding 1 to the top end with every plat... add 0.5 per plat. So 1-2.5 at unplatted... get 1-3 at 10 plat, 1-4 at 30, 1-5 at 50, 1-6 at 70, 1-7 at 90. Still useful, but cuts down the really high damages.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by PKChrisChan »

Arnaya wrote: Want to make them more challenging... set up a couple of rooms that regen them faster
Side Note, as of this patch there are rooms that do this I've noticed! ^.^
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Arnaya »

Oh neat. I havn't run my mare since the patch. If someone's noticed what rooms do that for mares, maybe put it up on the forums somewhere so the rest of the players are aware of them?
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Cherokee »

Arnaya wrote:As for SM's poisoning and running (Since that seems to be a big thing for most people).... that's a fairly easy one to fix. SM's don't get experience for poison collapses unless they're in the room.
Actually, as long as you're on the same plane, you still get experience. Even if they reversed that, it didn't stop people from Poisoning and running away before.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Arnaya »

That's fair Cherokee. I'm trying to look at some constructive ways to make this work for everyone. There's no outright solution to everything, just ways to reduce or mitigate things. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Sanc restoring either (Since that was mentioned earlier)... if what Arnaya's been told about reduced effect (Probably for everything, 1/2 effect if the evoker's in sanc. If you want to be completely safe and contribute to the fight, you arn't going to be as effective) in the SoT days is right.. that might be a good solution.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by coltdorsey »

Uthanatos wrote:A huge portion of this is Darks rather than Days, Days are frustrating, especially for those that aren't front line fighters, on more than one occasion I've used lesser mares to collapse them simply because I don't carry the chaks to carry through those engagements. Personally, I find that the dark immunity to poison is frustrating not just as a SM but as a Calenturian. Calenture is a warrior house, charged with guarding the city, and yet, our house art is all but useless against one of the primary threats to the city. That is a serious problem.
Maybe Calenture can try to bolster Poison Cloud only at Calenture to "break through" immunity so when Darkmares visit Calenture specifically, PC can be meaningful at home territory.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

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Maybe Calenture can try to bolster Poison Cloud only at Calenture to "break through" immunity so when Darkmares visit Calenture specifically, PC can be meaningful at home territory.
This I can wholly agree with and can be roleplayed in.
Oh neat. I havn't run my mare since the patch. If someone's noticed what rooms do that for mares, maybe put it up on the forums somewhere so the rest of the players are aware of them?
Harrow Glades is one of them. You get approx 4 per tick in that entire plane. Everywhere else is 1 per tick.
The argument that Sidas made about them being RP tools I would Strongly oppose. Mares arn't really meant to be allies and friends. To make them that, and allow full communication really undermines one of the main things that forces characters (RP wise) to nominally work together. The threat of mares is a story constant that makes the characters work together to some degree despite beliefs differences. Daymares are a part of that.
Yeah, I don't want them interacting with dreamers but having a few arts and perhaps the ability to jp to one another would be nice. I was also thinking something along the lines of buffing Bog and Ago forms in some ways.
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Re: Revisiting Maren Immunity

Post by Uthanatos »

I'd just like to say...oooh yay, we could then use PC on our house plane....let's give mares full immunity to all offensive and debuffing oh, and mass arts too. No more firestorm, blast, scare, para, screw it everything, oh and they can attack through PA too, let's see how everyone else feels about that. Seriously, as a Calenturian AND an active support SM, Uthy has been seriously hobbled in DM fights. Not everyone is a chak monkey, and they shouldn't have to be.
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