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DreamStrike

This is a game for roleplayers. We want your ideas how how to build the better game. Post your suggestions here.
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Cherokee
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DreamStrike

Post by Cherokee »

I'm not sure what you guys have in store for the use of DreamStrike, or if you plan to use it at all, but I had an idea of how it could be reintroduced and thought I'd share it.

I was thinking there could be a monthly Grand Tournament for every open house. The leader from each house could either select their best swordsman to participate in their stead, or do so themselves. Once the champions are chosen, there could be a randomized duel *or* a free-for-all. The winner's house Ruler would then be granted the art of DreamStrike until the next tournament, where it'll then be stripped and given to the next winner.
23:48:24: Laviticas: (( I am going to ****ing say this now because I will not be back in the stupid game.)

22:44:20: >Jawsman evokes his own dreamquake, which is bigger than Magnilia's dreamquake.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by buzzz »

In a way, I like that idea but then again, that would not level out the playing field for some of the RP's that will growing within the city limits of this game. Honestly it comes down to who has the power and their point of view really. I personally don't like the idea that this art even exists but then again I am one from a peaceful thinking way of life.
Mal Amenz
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Mal Amenz »

I've been a firm believer that perma-death (or dreamstrike in this case) has a place in gaming, but after seeing how Dreamstrike effected UL, and watching how other games handle the concept (i.e. DayZ, Wizardry Online, etc.), I honestly think that unless the game is specifically designed around perma-death, it should only be used to further a story and sparingly at that.

I don't know what the GM team here has in mind, but certainly the threat of Dreamstrike can make for interesting RP choices. I would say if it were to be used again, it would have to be under controlled circumstances where the GM's are involved AND the one being struck has clearly (through OOC means) consented to having their character being struck, and even for good measure the person doing the striking is fully aware of the potential repercussions they could face. Yes, that's a lot of conditionals, but under the right circumstances, it could make for some fabulous roleplaying.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Sidas »

OOC Consent is ridiculous in this case. That sort of restriction leads to somebody walking up to a Dreamstrike Master, spitting in their face, and fully expecting to NOT be struck. That's a bunch of baloney.

Make Dreamstrike tough to learn, tough to use, and tough to recover from socially. Removing the potential of death hurts a big part of Underlight's allure since it removes the one REAL consequence to offer.
HiRoGIiFiQ
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by HiRoGIiFiQ »

To dreamstrike someone you must simultaneously strike yourself as well....that'll teach the hot shots
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Mal Amenz »

Sidas wrote:OOC Consent is ridiculous in this case. That sort of restriction leads to somebody walking up to a Dreamstrike Master, spitting in their face, and fully expecting to NOT be struck. That's a bunch of baloney.
This "restriction" also keeps someone from logging in one night drunk off their ass and randomly striking another character.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Sidas »

Mal Amenz wrote:
Sidas wrote:OOC Consent is ridiculous in this case. That sort of restriction leads to somebody walking up to a Dreamstrike Master, spitting in their face, and fully expecting to NOT be struck. That's a bunch of baloney.
This "restriction" also keeps someone from logging in one night drunk off their ass and randomly striking another character.
Then they should deal with the consequences of the action. It can be, and should be, balanced to be difficult to obtain and difficult to get away with from an IC perspective but requiring OOC consent is baloney. Struck controllers can easily be given a boost to start anew to offset some of the difficulties from the death.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Mal Amenz »

Sidas wrote:
Mal Amenz wrote:
Sidas wrote:OOC Consent is ridiculous in this case. That sort of restriction leads to somebody walking up to a Dreamstrike Master, spitting in their face, and fully expecting to NOT be struck. That's a bunch of baloney.
This "restriction" also keeps someone from logging in one night drunk off their ass and randomly striking another character.
Then they should deal with the consequences of the action. It can be, and should be, balanced to be difficult to obtain and difficult to get away with from an IC perspective but requiring OOC consent is baloney. Struck controllers can easily be given a boost to start anew to offset some of the difficulties from the death.
Well then it's agree to disagree, cause I find it's equally baloney that a player has that kind of power, no matter how hard they worked to attain it, to completely and utterly destroy another player's character to the point that the only choice they have to continue playing the game is to re-roll, just on the whim of the first player.
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Cherokee
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Cherokee »

You both have fair points - maybe there could be a way to meet in the middle? I don't think there should be an OOC consent, because it gives everyone room to act fearless. However, I don't like the fact that someone could permanently kill off a character, that had so much time and effort invested into it by the player.

But what if the art was changed to be a temporary punishment? Like a week or two - maybe even a month? There could still be a penalty for the Striker, (to prevent abuse) and the person being struck would still suffer from it. And it'll also tone down the players' brazen attitudes, when they're around their enemies with the art.
23:48:24: Laviticas: (( I am going to ****ing say this now because I will not be back in the stupid game.)

22:44:20: >Jawsman evokes his own dreamquake, which is bigger than Magnilia's dreamquake.
Tary
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Tary »

I kind of agree on both. Requiring OOC consent removes some of the threat, but allowing players to permanently kill other players in an already small community is a potentially devastating power (as far as player retention and all that is concerned). I'd say one of two things:

1) DreamStrike should have the ability to resurrect. Soul essences should be undestroyable and should be like primes which drop when you collapse (and which also don't evaporate). Dreamers should be able to resurrect others using soul essences. That makes DreamStrike less permanent but certainly you'd have to get the Soul Essence in order to resurrect.

2) Change DreamStrike to SphereStrike, i.e. you have the ability to remove a Sphere from a player, but it'll cost you permanent stats, etc.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Koi-Spark »

Clearly there is a very narrow balance, more so than nearly any other skill in any other game, including Underlight, because of all at stake. If you make it to open and with minimal cost, everyone gets "killed" and you have no players left because everyone left after having to restart multiple times. If you keep it too restricted, or add too high a cost to it, then you risk making the art completely unusable, therefore you lose that unique feature in the game. How many other games (especially MMO) can you play where another player can permanently kill you?

Lyra seemed to have a pretty good balance with their stuff. Keep in mind, the art was very closely controlled - it's not like a player could go on a teaching rampage, giving everyone the art. It was used with very specific roleplays in mind, but not necessarily always with the consent of the victim. If I recall, there were several strikes that, after being investigated, did not have enough RP content to justify a permanent death and were reversed.

Dream Striking is not easy. You can't just pop it off on someone as soon as you collapse them. Once they are collapsed and you collect their essence, evoking Dream Strike takes a long time. I think it takes longer than any other art, possibly. If they didn't already have Recall set to return them to a sanctuary immediately, then they still have time to run away. If they're trapped (wards, etc.) then they also have the ability to Soul Evoke, so they can actually attack the Dream Striker enough to avoid the art evoke.

There's a lot of other variables and factors involved, but in the end you really have to want to be struck to be struck. Dream Strike is not the only reason you need to be very careful with your soul sphere. Once collapsed, if your priority isn't getting to a safe place (preferably without waking as soul sphere), then you need to realize that getting Dream Struck may be your own fault ;)

I know this post is going to catch flak from players who were struck against their will, as I'm sure there are some out there. What can I say? Tough luck, guys. You should have been more careful and a little less ballsy.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Roleplayer »

I am going to pipe in here. Unless there is a valid rp and you are interfering with a said belief or say a front, dream-striking cause you don't like so and so is horse-crap. I believe dream-strike has a place in the city. We seen it was successful in having " The Game". People had to located the pieces and add that person into the game, there was a good reason those people were placed into the game. The one that was marked had a chance to identify their marker. IF they failed, they were placed in a limbo. People were added due to interfering or trying to stop others major rps. I agree with Tary on the resurrection idea. We seen a group of players bring another temp stricken player back. It made for an awesome rp and some further chaos and wars. But to strike a person cause you don't like them, is not a valid rp in my honest opinion. I heard older players talk about a time when 4 or 5 people were struck during a weekend witch hunt. Not sure when that was, but some were valid and others these people admitted were senseless.

Just my thoughts on this. It has a place in the game.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Onyx »

Koi-Spark wrote:Once collapsed, if your priority isn't getting to a safe place (preferably without waking as soul sphere), then you need to realize that getting Dream Struck may be your own fault ;)


This right here. If all else fails. Wake as a soulsphere. You take the hit in XP loss. XP is easy to get back.
~Onyx Nightblade, Onyx Nightstorm... and maybe someone else?
Tary
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Tary »

Having seen Spark's reply I pretty much agree. There are a lot of arts and a lot of ways to avoid being dreamstruck. That being said it should be slightly harder I think: DreamStrike should be Line of Sight and you should have to be fairly close to the soulsphere -- i.e. add a "distance" limitation as well.

The problem I see currently is that in really large rooms while a battle is ranging you can literally stand way across the room while nobody is looking and just, boom: dreamstrike! It should be a completely transparent act, I think. A room-wide emote, something like:
>RavenXR is totally about to DreamStrike somebody, lolz.
Additionally there should be an "AboutToDreamStrike" message sent that is acknowledged (by the code) by all present, because lag can play a significant factor -- like chain-blasting used to be an issue.

If, after the emote, after your client sent an acknowledgement that it wasn't lagging and after RavenXR gets all up in yo' grill and waits 90 seconds while it evokes? Your own damn fault for not waking.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Mal Amenz »

Don't misunderstand me, I WANT players to have Dreamstrike in "Clash of Dreams" because it is such a powerful roleplaying tool, but it should be used as such and not as a weapon. Believe me, if someone I'm at odds with manages to maneuver me into a such a compromising state, or successfully lures me into a trap through excellent roleplaying, I'll give consent because it'll make for awesome storytelling. Hell, in the later days of UL, I was trying to convince people that bringing back Dreamstrike under controlled circumstances would make for some amazing RP:

"Imagine the panic, and all it would take was one last well placed strike from Tzayak. Wouldn't even have to put the art back in, just let a rumor slip that someone was struck."

And I guess that's the crux of the issue for me is that I want to see it in game as a mechanic to create engaging storytelling, but to also make sure there are safe-guards in place to protect players from those who would use it an excuse to be a dick because of "lol, roleplay" WITHOUT having to go through the whole petition process (or the equivalent of what COD will have)
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Clarity »

As someone who's been on the receiving end of a "No clue it was coming" dreamstrike, I'm 100% against forcing folks to get outside, ooc consent. Dreamstrike already exists within the universe of the Dream. and since it's already a thing that exists, policing it to that extent is over the top. Half of the allure behind the art is that it "kills" off a character. It's a real threat, and forcing people to get ooc consent cheapens the fear-factor behind the art.

A better route then removing or over policing Dreamstrike would be to just promote community roleplaying with it. Make it super difficult to obtain, and have it say - cost your own dreamsoul(perminantly) to cast, perhaps a small amount, like one or two - but then also give it a very slight chance to fail, and if it fails you still lose those dreamsoul. Then allow the community as a whole to work towards a real solution when it comes to reversals. Something that would be just as difficult, if not more so, to obtain - but also not a thing that's completely off the table.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Braelynn »

I would have to agree that doing all that OOC bull-pucky before a dreamstrike is ridiculous. Like Sidas says.. make it tough to learn, tough to use... it shouldn't just be put in the hands of anyone to use as they see fit. It really takes away from the whole "you should seriously fear this jackass because he's got dreamstrike". There SHOULD be a level of fear there.. that's the INTENTION.

Just my few cents. I've played in the Lyra-era and the SOT-ask-permission-to-strike era.
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KirtesOmathear
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by KirtesOmathear »

Concur. No asking... The game is IC not OOC.. You shouldn't have to ask someone OOC to use an ability in the game.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Zykium »

To lend to the permanence of DreamStrike evoking Knowledge should tell you who was dreamstruck in that particular room.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Tary »

Perhaps Recall should be un-abjurable though.
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Re: DreamStrike

Post by Sidas »

Tary wrote:Perhaps Recall should be un-abjurable though.
And unstackable. :-)
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