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The Great Houses - Input Requested

This is a game for roleplayers. We want your ideas how how to build the better game. Post your suggestions here.
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Koi-Cryptic
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The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Hello Players,

I'm reaching out to the community to get some input in regard to the houses. The current situation with them is not leading to anything consistent as far as in game stories go. Over the last few years we have tried different things to revive the houses. We've tried letting them be completely player run, we've tried having some GM run, we've tried having a GM seneschal in every house specific to its beliefs, and we've tried having houses assume the role of former guilds that were previously present within the game. Here's a few things that we've noticed.

1) The houses always fall stagnant for one reason or another. When they were completely player run, the houses didn't really do anything. Players would just enter the game to keep their crests, or just show up and stand around using the houses only for storage of mission items.

2) When we put a GM in every house, it was working at first, but we noticed over time that if a GM wasn't present, the house didn't do anything. I think maybe there was a belief that if a GM wasn't there, then they couldn't do anything? GM involvement is not a requirement for roleplaying to happen in the game. If you want something to directly affect another house or players in general, like setting an trap with area effects or something, then yes a GM would be required for that. GM presence hasn't been terribly consistent lately with the few houses that are open, so maybe if there was that thought that we were required, perhaps that has lead to some of the stagnation we're seeing.

3) We opened a few GM run houses such as KoES, but players seem to have ignored the RP potential of having a darkmare house. It seems players just want darkmares to come out and feed them XP and special items. We did an RP where a darkmare tried to revive Tehthu, and people just kind of stood there and watched. Activity could be greater here from the team if players are interested in actually pursuing these things.

4) We tried opening a house as not even a house, but more of an RP tool. Using different rooms of the houses to give tools for different types or roleplays like forging items, manipulating avatars, and more. Players never used it and no matter how many times it was explained that it wasn't a house, people still asked what the beliefs were and who were the members.

These are just some of the things we've noticed, and we're hoping to get some input from the playerbase because we are running out of ideas. How can the houses be used in a way that players would participate in? Is there just no interest in houses and people just want crests and storage? The houses as they are haven't been doing a lot, and a few RPs here and there is great, but it is not active. Presence alone doesn't make a house active. We can't stipulate minimum membership with a lower playerbase, because there just isn't enough people for that. GMs cannot be responsible for planning, executing, and maintaining all RPs or storylines. We are supposed to be supporting the players, but lately it seems more like the players think they have to support us for anything to happen. I certainly hope that we have not given that impression.

A few ideas that have been tossed around:
1) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening them with the original beliefs and leaving them closed until players band together to pursue those houses.

2) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening all of them and making them all public space with no rank/crest locked portals.

In closing, this post isn't meant to point fingers or place blame on anyone. We all share the responsibility of making this game a fun place to be. The issues with the houses are a shared result of both the GM team and the players. The community as a whole seems to have just lost their spark for houses. What can we do to breathe life back into them? Please reply to this thread with any suggestions you may have.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Lio »

can you define OLD BELIEFS? being a SOT player we didn't have these essence mare beliefs.
As far as my input goes.
I have been concerned at the dwindling numbers and the houses tossing all the responsibility on one or two shoulders. Its a team effort, everyone who takes a crest, a mark or a halo....should equally share the responsibilities. There has to be a global change on all the efforts with the game. I do not want to see houses close, however I do believe...we could run comfortably on 4...those empty houses are a reminder of how much we weathered keeping our community alive. Change them on the level edit once you take them out of the equation... My two cents
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Koi-Cryptic
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Old beliefs as in the house beliefs from Lyra, with the exception of the EA because we would like to keep something from SoT and EA was one the longest running houses from SoT. So it would be their beliefs.
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PKChrisChan
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by PKChrisChan »

I will second that -players- need to acknowledge player efforts as much as gamemaster ones. As someone who has always gone out and tried to make something happen with or without gamemaster presence, I find the "audience" style players to be the most exhausting. These are the players who won't bother to -do- anything unless they see a raw emote. These players often end up as Rulers of houses. Which is surprising.

Conflict in the current state of Underlight just doesn't do anything but make people angry. I find that we should steer clear of any forced conflicts as evinced by the DoL vs HC war. The conversations we had in discord support that.

I also feel the market has too much power and focus. Everyone went from going and supporting one another and -doing- things to hunting emphants all day solo in Umbric to rush to 8th sphere and dual focus. I think the market is fun, but should be something major and happens monthly. It effected pvp as well, in the sense that all your enemies were filled to the brim with market items. 25 +35s 25 50s with para chaks. Trading Chakrams for gold should have never been a thing either as some players amassed so much gold that they had receipts for like hundreds of gold. These behaviors removed interactions between players. For a while, I didn't write a quest for months since they were mass spamming tokens. People still don't quest even with the changes.

It should also be discouraged to have alts in every house. You should focus your energy on one house, and your alts should be free-spirit or in neutral houses such as AoE. No single player or GM should be leveling out conflict with alts.

Moving forward, I think that 2 houses minimum should be standard. There should be rewards for activity. The energy should be placed into rewarding effort from the market should be re-aligned to people actually trying to do something in houses. Not for the ones AFK charm hunting. You can standardize this process. I trust you all to have this ability.

When and if more fighters come or new players decide to start fighting. That is when we should look into more diamtetically opposed conflict houses.

Right now, there should be a central story that houses can contribute to. We could also move away from the "big bad villain" stories and engage with different mysteries of the dreams cape. There are many areas of the city which are largely unused from a story wide perspective. (Coven of the Echt, Lightness Hollow, Tombs in Trinity, the Rifts, etc).

I am on my phone currently but I will respond more later.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Jawsman »

1/2.) At House Calenture, Jawsman has been pretty keen on maintaining house "Chaos" activity. In fact, over the past two months, we've had one roleplay per month in both March and April in furthering Calenture's chaos agenda. More are planned, as I've openly announced at City Forum. Jawsman explicitly asked Mason about the progress with Calenture's mission and Mason did indicate he was satisfied with it. Mason's involvement with House Calenture's activity isn't required but does add more credibility when it occurs.

During the early days of the "reawakening", after Spika was dreamstruck, Raymoth Antagon was still very active for DoL, while Eldryck Venym made a half-assed attempt to be Calenture's interim seneschal. With respect to his controller, I'm calling it like I see it. (Although I do respect if a lot of people, both for IC and OOC reasons, do not like him. Jawsman, as a character, wasn't an Eldryck fanboy by any stretch, but was looking forward to seeing Eldryck put DoL on their toes.) The members of Dreamers of Light seemed to dream more when Raymoth was active. By far, their seneschal dreamed more. Can you really blame Calenture's lower member activity when we essentially went without a seneschal for like six months?

3.) I was very much into the "Tehthu Returns" roleplay. If you'll recall, Jawsman and Magnum were standing right there and literally had to be kicked out of the old KoeS facade because we wanted Tehthu to come out. I unequivocally wanted Tehthu to come back or for that RP to be furthered in some way. I would not describe our activity, whatsoever, as "just standing around and watching." However, if you view events in a roleplay in a continuum, with events forming a narrative, and a plot structure, it is often harder to follow if a player isn't present for all those events and may not be able to get caught up on what they've missed.

I know this may run counter to how the GM's want to run things, but for a lot of times a major RP is being furthered in some way, a GM could tip players off in Discord about it, either at the time of, or a little in advance. We, because of our aforementioned lives, may not be able to drop what we're doing and dream but at least a few, here and there, may decide to dream and make it easier for the GM's to see player interest in it. Sometimes, player activity is determined by knowing that something is happening in-game.

Also, as a house, Calenture is also contributing to the personal vault roleplay, in terms of Leonard Scruff removing strength from Calenture's prime in support of it. A house prime, with the number of essences and overall strength in it, is a valid symbol of house activity, among other things.

If Calenture is making efforts to maintain its mission, it should not close. With seven total members, as most of us are adults with real-life things going on, how many hours per week of dreaming or house activities per month should be considered "active?" I've explicitly asked this question before and there is no firm metric. We are also planning on adding a certain new member in a week or less...

The houses seem like big places for small groups of characters to have access to...but then again, Lyra Studios made the original design of the houses as such to support much more than half a dozen members, yes? So yeah, some parts of houses go unused nowadays. There's also a love-hate relationship with houses and wars and before DoL closed, due to their own damn fault, inter-house rivalry did produce some level of activity and intrigue. EDIT: But in support of what Nathan said, conflict shouldn't be pushed by the GM's until more fighters get in. However, I will very much compliment the GM team for some of the epic force on force DoL vs. HC or dreamers vs. DM fights that have happened in the past year. I never saw DM's as "XP farms" per se, and appreciated, for example, a dreamer vs. DM fight on KoeS's facade that involved a total of five DM's at one point.

EDIT: Also agree with Nathan that there are A LOT of un and under-utilized planes in the city. Acropolis, Echten House, and the ones he mentioned. Also agree that in addition to their own missions, a house contributing to a "central story" is also valid activity.

Closing houses and turning them into public spaces would be an absolute mistake. Reverting them to old belief systems? Really, wasn't the stagnation under old belief systems the reason why the GM team initiated the "Reawakening" in the first place? Some characters have defined themselves by being Free Spirits. Some characters identify with certain houses and gain something from the camaraderie, at the very least. Statements are made by a character's choice to join a house...or not. Both should have equal validity.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cricket »

PKChrisChan wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:38 pm
I also feel the market has too much power and focus. Everyone went from going and supporting one another and -doing- things to hunting emphants all day solo in Umbric to rush to 8th sphere and dual focus. I think the market is fun, but should be something major and happens monthly. It effected pvp as well, in the sense that all your enemies were filled to the brim with market items. 25 +35s 25 50s with para chaks. Trading Chakrams for gold should have never been a thing either as some players amassed so much gold that they had receipts for like hundreds of gold. These behaviors removed interactions between players. For a while, I didn't write a quest for months since they were mass spamming tokens. People still don't quest even with the changes.
Coming from someone that is around every single day, I did not see people go from one extreme to the next (supporting one another and then doing nothing but hunting emphants). The missions are intended to give dreamers something to do throughout the day, or night. During any event that I have been around for, I have not once seen people out hunting emphants instead of supporting. People are always usually at the event. I am just grateful that people enjoy the missions and it gives solo dreamers something to do when no one is around.

I will say though, that saying the market should be some major thing that happens just monthly is equivalent to saying people shouldn't gen but once a month, or people shouldn't hunt but once a month, or do a quest but once a month. I did however listen to peoples opinions and objections over the months, and the missions have been changed drastically for a while now, and as far as I know, maybe 1-2 people have even gotten a plat in several months now, and yet I still am able to see where train logs are still lacking from people tasking and granting tasks.

The missions and market can no longer be the blame for the lack of tasking. I feel it is because people get burnt out from tasking, which I can understand and 100% relate to. You shouldn't have any issues giving out task and receiving them now if you put yourself out there.


Conflict in the current state of Underlight just doesn't do anything but make people angry. I find that we should steer clear of any forced conflicts as evinced by the DoL vs HC war. The conversations we had in discord support that.
I do agree with this to an extent. The HC and DoL wars were fun in the beginning, but discord became a huge problem. If kept IC, it would have been great.

Moving forward, I think that 2 houses minimum should be standard. There should be rewards for activity. The energy should be placed into rewarding effort from the market should be re-aligned to people actually trying to do something in houses. Not for the ones AFK charm hunting. You can standardize this process. I trust you all to have this ability.
The vaults, mission boards and XP from the mission boards are the perks to being in a house. Everyone wants rewards for playing the game and doing the simplest things like being in a house and doing things for it, which the houses are basically what the game is revolved around and we should be doing all those things anyways. I can't stop people from AFK charm hunting just as I can't stop them from AFK house meeting. I also cannot stop them from AFK while at a house event. We can think on this though.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cricket »

Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm Reverting them to old belief systems? Really, wasn't the stagnation under old belief systems the reason why the GM team initiated the "Reawakening" in the first place? .

I believe this was just an option that was thrown out there. Now here we are with stagnation to the beliefs now that are set in place.

If you noticed, the beginning of the reawakening, we had really good potential and it worked for a while. (Things happened). The player base is small so when 1 thing happens or 1 person gets upset its like a train reaction. So now we are left with houses that are not actively engaged in things like it could be.

I remember just a few years ago when houses were hunting and genning together, having house meetings, hanging at the house and working on armory and vaults together, getting defense up, helping each other with event tasks. There's not much of it going on anymore, which is the reason for the post and suggestions in regards to how ya'll can make your house work better for the game.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm 1/2.) At House Calenture, Jawsman has been pretty keen on maintaining house "Chaos" activity. In fact, over the past two months, we've had one roleplay per month in both March and April in furthering Calenture's chaos agenda. More are planned, as I've openly announced at City Forum. Jawsman explicitly asked Mason about the progress with Calenture's mission and Mason did indicate he was satisfied with it. Mason's involvement with House Calenture's activity isn't required but does add more credibility when it occurs.
First, I don't want you to think that you have to defend your house. I'm not talking about one specific house. I am referring to a more big picture view, but to speak more directly about Calenture since you mention it... They were indeed active in December, then it didn't do a whole lot until March and April when it had those two events, and I believe there may have been one other a little before that. I understand that people are adults and can't sit down every night to throw out some big RPs, but I do think that it is possible and reasonable to do more than 2 or 3 RPs in a 4 month period. At that rate, you're looking about 9 RPs on the high end in an entire year. It would be very difficult to maintain people's interest at that pace, especially new players who aren't so used to Underlight and how it functions.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm During the early days of the "reawakening", after Spika was dreamstruck, Raymoth Antagon was still very active for DoL, while Eldryck Venym made a half-assed attempt to be Calenture's interim seneschal. With respect to his controller, I'm calling it like I see it. (Although I do respect if a lot of people, both for IC and OOC reasons, do not like him. Jawsman, as a character, wasn't an Eldryck fanboy by any stretch, but was looking forward to seeing Eldryck put DoL on their toes.) The members of Dreamers of Light seemed to dream more when Raymoth was active. By far, their seneschal dreamed more. Can you really blame Calenture's lower member activity when we essentially went without a seneschal for like six months?
This is actually part of my whole point. You ask if we can really blame Calenture's lesser activity when it went "without a seneschal" for six months. House activity should not revolve around a GM being there to push people. The people in the house should be pushing each other to do this and to keep each other engaged. If a GM is going to have sole responsibility for pushing activity, ranks in the houses matter for nothing because there are no Rulers or Guardians of the belief structure. There would be only a Seneschal and followers.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm 3.) I was very much into the "Tehthu Returns" roleplay. If you'll recall, Jawsman and Magnum were standing right there and literally had to be kicked out of the old KoeS facade because we wanted Tehthu to come out. I unequivocally wanted Tehthu to come back or for that RP to be furthered in some way. I would not describe our activity, whatsoever, as "just standing around and watching." However, if you view events in a roleplay in a continuum, with events forming a narrative, and a plot structure, it is often harder to follow if a player isn't present for all those events and may not be able to get caught up on what they've missed.
I was referring to the RP where Vrikar was using fragments of Tehthu's soul essence to try and rebuild a new, empowered soul essence to revive Tehthu. People did not get involved until the very end when Kyraith appeared to interrupt Vrikar. I wasn't referring to the event at the old KoES facade where you were hearing sounds of Tehthu inside.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm I know this may run counter to how the GM's want to run things, but for a lot of times a major RP is being furthered in some way, a GM could tip players off in Discord about it, either at the time of, or a little in advance. We, because of our aforementioned lives, may not be able to drop what we're doing and dream but at least a few, here and there, may decide to dream and make it easier for the GM's to see player interest in it. Sometimes, player activity is determined by knowing that something is happening in-game.
When a GM is present and something is happening, we usually do put something in the annoucements channel of Discord. I know we've even done that just when we bring in darkmares sometimes. However, like you mention later in your response about having lives, sometimes we aren't even aware of people doing things in the moment and would have no way of alerting people to that happening. Players are welcome to throw out a message in the general chat if they're going to be doing something. I've seen some do that already.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm Also, as a house, Calenture is also contributing to the personal vault roleplay, in terms of Leonard Scruff removing strength from Calenture's prime in support of it. A house prime, with the number of essences and overall strength in it, is a valid symbol of house activity, among other things.
Yes, Calenture contributed some strength, and again, we are looking at the big picture and not just one house specifically. Contributing strength, and the 2 or 3 RPs you mentioned earlier in your response are fantastic. Let me ask though, when is the last time Calenture had a meeting, or a city-wide class on chaos trying to teach people why their beliefs are so important? You don't have to have a scheduled event to be active. You could push the beliefs of the house in individual discussion, or group discussion when people are standing aruond in the Library imping arts.There are so many things people can do to be active in their house that doesn't revolve around a scheduled event. You could have Jawsman just standing there studying chaos or something, and that could potentially draw interest from people who might ask what you're doing and why. These things don't happen. There is no fluidity to house activity. Activity is not measured in just the number of events held. I've seen members of Calenture speak to be cautious about chaos and show concern about its presence. They should be embracing it as a member of the house, not wary of it.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm If Calenture is making efforts to maintain its mission, it should not close. With seven total members, as most of us are adults with real-life things going on, how many hours per week of dreaming or house activities per month should be considered "active?" I've explicitly asked this question before and there is no firm metric. We are also planning on adding a certain new member in a week or less...
We cannot base house momentum off of membership. As I've said, there is a lower playerbase right now so we can't exactly stack out houses with dozens of members. Also, you shouldn't be trying to put a minimum requirement to "activity". That says to me that you're looking to know exactly how much effort is required on your part to remain open. An "active" house wouldn't be worried about that. There is no firm metric to gauge activity, but just as easily as you can spot a neglectful Seneschal, people can tell if a house is active or not.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm The houses seem like big places for small groups of characters to have access to...but then again, Lyra Studios made the original design of the houses as such to support much more than half a dozen members, yes? So yeah, some parts of houses go unused nowadays. There's also a love-hate relationship with houses and wars and before DoL closed, due to their own damn fault, inter-house rivalry did produce some level of activity and intrigue. EDIT: But in support of what Nathan said, conflict shouldn't be pushed by the GM's until more fighters get in. However, I will very much compliment the GM team for some of the epic force on force DoL vs. HC or dreamers vs. DM fights that have happened in the past year. I never saw DM's as "XP farms" per se, and appreciated, for example, a dreamer vs. DM fight on KoeS's facade that involved a total of five DM's at one point.
Well if you think about it, the houses could be better suited to smaller numbers. A Ruler's maximum XP allowance to grant on the mission boards each day is only 40k. That's a drop in the bucket after like 6th sphere. If a Ruler had to stretch that 40k across 40 people each day it wouldn't be worth the time and effort it takes to type up the report. Conflict is a very touchy subject, for sure. There are definitely players that love it, and players that hate it. Back when GMs were trying to push conflict, players had asked for conflict. We gave them conflict, and they didn't like it as much when it was player vs player. So we gave them KoES run by darkmares which is a much easier enemy because everyone knows the darkmares are going to lose in the end anyway. Even if they put up a tough fight or not.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm EDIT: Also agree with Nathan that there are A LOT of un and under-utilized planes in the city. Acropolis, Echten House, and the ones he mentioned. Also agree that in addition to their own missions, a house contributing to a "central story" is also valid activity.
I agree with missed opportunities with some the planes completely. I have actually tried multiple times to get people to engage more at the Acropolis, but either the current players don't remember how to get there, or they don't want to go all the way out there because we GMs have been left completely alone and disengaged on more than one occasion from the players when we've been there in the past.
Jawsman wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:13 pm Closing houses and turning them into public spaces would be an absolute mistake. Reverting them to old belief systems? Really, wasn't the stagnation under old belief systems the reason why the GM team initiated the "Reawakening" in the first place? Some characters have defined themselves by being Free Spirits. Some characters identify with certain houses and gain something from the camaraderie, at the very least. Statements are made by a character's choice to join a house...or not. Both should have equal validity.
The idea behid the original beliefs bit, to be honest, wasn't because it could possibly drive interest. We definitely felt that it wasn't, which is why we changed them multiple times at this point. The original beliefs would present a nostalgic aspect for returning players and nothing more. Honestly, we're just wanting to breathe life into the houses, but if we can't then we would just revert back to what people are most familiar with and just settle with that and try to focus on other aspects of the game to generate interest.

Besides defening Calenture, would you have any suggestions for the houses in general, or do you just feel that they are good the way they are?

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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Lio »

Koi-Cryptic post_id=28267 time=1681858313 user_id=368]

I was referring to the RP where Vrikar was using fragments of Tehthu's soul essence to try and rebuild a new, empowered soul essence to revive Tehthu. People did not get involved until the very end when Kyraith appeared to interrupt Vrikar. I wasn't referring to the event at the old KoES facade where you were hearing sounds of Tehthu inside.
I want to state of taking some responsibility for not engaging. Lio was there as a teacher encouraging third sphere taskers to get involved. I was in the whispers with my students encouraging them. I am sorry that roleplay wasn't engaged correctly.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Jawsman »

Cricket,

1.) Very much agree in regards to house wars. It's stressful, with a lower playerbase especially, to maintain a house war for too long. It really does become a war of attrition which I'd think was not the intent. Also, extended wars alienated those not involved because they wanted nothing to do with it.

2.) I agree with the market in general because the highest level of chakram I've seen in the wild, so to speak, are 60's. No other way to get 70's plus except from elders or the market. I do have a suggestion about the market though. For some type of cost, to be defined by the GM's, the marketfolk can combine the higher level chakrams to save pack space, because 20 charges on those does seem a bit low. I also like the market tweaks to de-emphasize the role of tokens in plateaus. Esinore kept good metrics of plateaus and I think her work was rather useful. I look forward to what Azlan comes up with.

3.) Ultimately, DoL closing did cause a certain measure of stagnation. I think much of their quitting in solidarity with a certain dreamer was misplaced. That, in part, killed some of the higher-level DM fights because you had less heavyweights around that were capable of holding their own in some of it. It also killed some of the roleplay opportunity. Still, I respect that Becker had to take care of business.

4.) I also think that the sustained toxicity in Discord, in particular the old Unboon channel, contributed to some stagnation as well. I am grateful for the measures that have been taken to greatly reduce it.

5.) It's a balancing act, but I appreciate that we're having a better discussion about the role of houses this time around than, for example, House Calenture leadership finding a banner in their Initiate Missions room, the tone of which amounted to "Due to lack of house activity, you have X number of days to get your stuff and GTFO"

6.) Also, in defense of Qarrian and those who are trying to reopen OoSM, a decision to turn houses into public spaces would probably alienate those players.

Cryptic, I actually love that when I'm typing a post and about to publish it, it will tell me there's a new reply to consider. So, I'll reply to yours here.

1.) Obviously, I have a biased viewpoint and look in terms of House Calenture and the impact it might have on it...because that's what impacts my gameplay the most. However, I have seen AoE's activity drop off although certain individual members are dreaming and helping newlies and teaching, etc, I do see, over the past couple of months, that their house-specific activities have been non-existent. Over the past few months, however, it's also harder given that there are only two player-run houses open at present. Ultimately, by definition, rulers should be the most active members of a house and be the more frequent drivers of house activity.

You are right that House Calenture hasn't had an actual meeting in a few months, so yeah, I'll look into it.

2.) Jawsman and a few others noticed SOMETHING at Acropolis and Jawsman actually took Qarrian there one day to check it out. Some of the older dreamers wouldn't mind taking newer dreamers there. I think placing codexes in the lower sphere (1-4) libraries describing how to get to certain planes might be a useful addition. That might be a nice thing to put in a task, too.

3.) In regards to HC not driving its mission in part due to not having a seneschal, well, yeah, we are guilty of that. Seneschals aren't essential to pushing a house agenda but Calenture's membership noticed, by contrast, that DoL had a consistently active seneschal who participated in house activities. That was definitely a factor. I mean, I applaud Raymoth's controller to be active like that, but it also set the bar too high for other seneschals. You're right that GM's shouldn't be essential to roleplay; however, not just in Underlight, but in other games, a GM showing up does increase player interest. And when one house's GM shows up consistently while no one else has one, it de-incentivizes those houses to come up with their own things if the perception is that the GM team is letting them twist in the wind by comparison.

4.) Jawsman didn't participate with the Vrikar and Kyraith thing in part, because he may not have been dreaming those particular nights. I heard a bit about what happened (IG) but not the complete story I don't think. Jawsman has a vested dislike of Kyraith because of Spika, so we could roll with that, if ever it came up again.

5.) Jawsman has actively talked to multiple people about Calenture's belief system in regards to chaos. This is, in part, why we're close to adding a certain new member. However, there should be some latitude if characters in that house have more extreme viewpoints than others in how we should push our chaos agenda. For example, Jawsman's willingness to push the boundaries with his experiments are more extreme than Kelos's perceptions.

I did, at one point, run a chaos symposium, but I can't remember how long ago that was. It was when DoL was still open, though. I should probably run another one.

6.) In regards to how houses are currently run, I still think allowing groups of players to roleplay the opening of a house is a good thing. I see Qarrian and a few others actively doing that, although I'm not sure where Max Luminous has been the past couple of weeks in gradually pushing for PoR to reopen. I do think GM's should, if they view a certain house's activity as low, to prod the house membership to run activities. Jawsman has noted that Jasper has been running the dream lore evenings and has helped with a couple of impromptu excursions, but IC, is also thinking about why AoE, despite having the highest membership, isn't having more of its own members participate.

I need to think more about how the GM team can tweak houses but I want to defer saying more on it until more than just Lio, Nathan, and myself have weighed in. This post has been up for less than a day and I think gathering a greater swath of opinions would be helpful.

7.) Back in the Lyra days, how much XP did rulers and guardians have to give out on mission boards? Was it the same? I agree with you that a 40k limit is less useful if spread out and especially at higher spheres, but still, there is a lot of unused space within houses because I do think Lyra designed the houses with larger memberships in mind.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cricket »

Jaws

Just to clarify one thing. Osm is opening soon. The group is working really hard to get it open and are almost there.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Janus »

I would argue the Houses fall stagnant because the relationships between characters and/or between players fall apart. Or because they aren't generating a narrative or conflict in a way that inspires them to form new motivations for their characters. Or the beliefs are not compelling. Houses are conflict oriented. No one wants to sit in a room full of whispers.

There should never be a GM in any House, except for a Seneschal and if it can't sustain itself without one, it shouldn't be open. This is important. Create a Seneschal in the House to guide its identity.

Number 3 had been done before, didn't work out. Also it is the Monastery. ;) I think it is important to recognize players in this moment. Some players have characters that are tied into a place and time with a shared narrative. It is asking a lot of the players to break immersion in the game that requires full immersion. And honestly, the narrative changes you've provided don't make much difference. People are mostly the same.

Number 4 was probably a bad idea but I respect the try. Ultimately, you fill the field with distractions. If you are trying to cultivate House cultures, you should invest in the Houses and eliminating Guilds.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Brother Timothy »

I hope no one minds that the oldest freespirit in the game is commenting on this. First off a house does not need to be at war, or be in conflict. Sure, I have seen players come out of the wood work when there are house wars, but they vanish back in just as quickly. What a house needs is not conflict so much as achievable goals.
House beliefs often seem to be ignored for convenience.
GM's should not be obvious characters in the houses with players. A house run by GM's is going to attract folks who believe they will be able to advance faster. This includes seneschals. It will also attract people who think something will happen because obviously this house has the GM seal of approval. However a house with a regular member character that just happens to be run by a GM controller, whose purpose is to keep tabs on what the house is doing and offer suggestions like any normal character, is not a bad idea.
Rewards, you want people to be active? Most people need rewards. Say me and my buddies open the EA. opening the house is a great reward for that RP. But what if when the house was opened not all of the rooms were. Well then me and my buddies would have to further RP to open other rooms and each time the opening of a room would be a reward. But if we did RP after RP and got no reward well eventually we would tire and give up. This also goes for individual characters. If you want individuals to participate in your RP first you need to have a place for them, and second they need to be rewarded.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Azraile »

Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm 1) The houses always fall stagnant for one reason or another. When they were completely player run, the houses didn't really do anything. Players would just enter the game to keep their crests, or just show up and stand around using the houses only for storage of mission items.
If it is possible, I would suggest requiring rank to have activity. Be on so often or get demoted, if all leaders are lost leadership can be offered to a guardian and so on. This can keep leadership and hopefully the house active?
Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm2) When we put a GM in every house, it was working at first, but we noticed over time that if a GM wasn't present, the house didn't do anything. I think maybe there was a belief that if a GM wasn't there, then they couldn't do anything? GM involvement is not a requirement for roleplaying to happen in the game. If you want something to directly affect another house or players in general, like setting an trap with area effects or something, then yes a GM would be required for that. GM presence hasn't been terribly consistent lately with the few houses that are open, so maybe if there was that thought that we were required, perhaps that has lead to some of the stagnation we're seeing.
Maybe use the advisor role for GM presence? Unless it is an adversarial house of some kind.
Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm3) We opened a few GM run houses such as KoES, but players seem to have ignored the RP potential of having a darkmare house. It seems players just want darkmares to come out and feed them XP and special items. We did an RP where a darkmare tried to revive Tehthu, and people just kind of stood there and watched. Activity could be greater here from the team if players are interested in actually pursuing these things.
I don't see that right now, people seam very interested in what Hogbone is doing.... trying to talk to him and figure out what is going on.... or gather clues. Though he keeps waking and moving around to quickly to talk to or really get to many clues from what is going on. It all sounds very interesting but chasing him around for him to vanish over and over and leave only a little bit of trance behind in the same place over and over again is a little confusing.
Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm4) We tried opening a house as not even a house, but more of an RP tool. Using different rooms of the houses to give tools for different types or roleplays like forging items, manipulating avatars, and more. Players never used it and no matter how many times it was explained that it wasn't a house, people still asked what the beliefs were and who were the members.
This actualy sounds very interesting...... Maybe try putting signs up in there threshold rooms and at the house itself that this house is being used to provide a game service and is not a house?

Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm A few ideas that have been tossed around:
1) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening them with the original beliefs and leaving them closed until players band together to pursue those houses.

2) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening all of them and making them all public space with no rank/crest locked portals.
I think both of these are a bad idea as most of the houses seam to be involved in RP.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm 1) The houses always fall stagnant for one reason or another. When they were completely player run, the houses didn't really do anything. Players would just enter the game to keep their crests, or just show up and stand around using the houses only for storage of mission items.
Azraile wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:11 am If it is possible, I would suggest requiring rank to have activity. Be on so often or get demoted, if all leaders are lost leadership can be offered to a guardian and so on. This can keep leadership and hopefully the house active?
There is currently a 2 week timer on rank. If they're not logged into the game, they are automatically demoted. The problem with this that we've had in the past is either people will simply log in to keep their rank, but not actually do or say anything. The other problem we've had is that when an inactive Ruler is removed, sometimes they get very upset and quit playing the game and that doesn't help with the already low playerbase. We're trying to think of ways to be able to keep player interest, allow them to further the houses themselves, and not upset people along the way. In the past, it's been easier for people to accept a house closing entirely because then they're not the only one being demoted. When it's just them, they feel singled out and punished. Not everyone is like this, but we have seen it many times.
Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm2) When we put a GM in every house, it was working at first, but we noticed over time that if a GM wasn't present, the house didn't do anything. I think maybe there was a belief that if a GM wasn't there, then they couldn't do anything? GM involvement is not a requirement for roleplaying to happen in the game. If you want something to directly affect another house or players in general, like setting an trap with area effects or something, then yes a GM would be required for that. GM presence hasn't been terribly consistent lately with the few houses that are open, so maybe if there was that thought that we were required, perhaps that has lead to some of the stagnation we're seeing.
Azraile wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:11 amMaybe use the advisor role for GM presence? Unless it is an adversarial house of some kind.

The GM house seneschals are the advisors. We've also used the Advisor role for players to fill that spot rather than a GM in the past. Maybe that might work again, as long as the right people who will push the houses are put into that role. It's definitely something to revisit.
Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm3) We opened a few GM run houses such as KoES, but players seem to have ignored the RP potential of having a darkmare house. It seems players just want darkmares to come out and feed them XP and special items. We did an RP where a darkmare tried to revive Tehthu, and people just kind of stood there and watched. Activity could be greater here from the team if players are interested in actually pursuing these things.
Azraile wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:11 amI don't see that right now, people seam very interested in what Hogbone is doing.... trying to talk to him and figure out what is going on.... or gather clues. Though he keeps waking and moving around to quickly to talk to or really get to many clues from what is going on. It all sounds very interesting but chasing him around for him to vanish over and over and leave only a little bit of trance behind in the same place over and over again is a little confusing.
Yes, we've noticed some interest in Hogbone's activities and we can definitely expand on that. I was more generalizing that darkmares are considered enemies of the city, but yet people aren't actively trying to repel them from the house. It just seems like they're waiting around for the next DM battle or just want to stand there and try to talk and reason with a darkmare.
Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm4) We tried opening a house as not even a house, but more of an RP tool. Using different rooms of the houses to give tools for different types or roleplays like forging items, manipulating avatars, and more. Players never used it and no matter how many times it was explained that it wasn't a house, people still asked what the beliefs were and who were the members.
Azraile wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:11 amThis actualy sounds very interesting...... Maybe try putting signs up in there threshold rooms and at the house itself that this house is being used to provide a game service and is not a house?

Well for this one, aside from personally telling people, we actually did have signs up all over the house and I believe even one in Threshold explaining that it was a place for all dreamers to use for their own endeavors. It just never took off at the time.
Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm A few ideas that have been tossed around:
1) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening them with the original beliefs and leaving them closed until players band together to pursue those houses.

2) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening all of them and making them all public space with no rank/crest locked portals.
Azraile wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:11 am I think both of these are a bad idea as most of the houses seam to be involved in RP.
These were just loose ideas we had tossed out, but didn't discuss in much detail. We've seen a few RPs come out of HC, and hopefully with OOSM reopening, that'll pick up. There's not much interaction elsewhere though unless a GM drives it that we've seen.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Janus wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:12 am I would argue the Houses fall stagnant because the relationships between characters and/or between players fall apart. Or because they aren't generating a narrative or conflict in a way that inspires them to form new motivations for their characters. Or the beliefs are not compelling. Houses are conflict oriented. No one wants to sit in a room full of whispers.

There should never be a GM in any House, except for a Seneschal and if it can't sustain itself without one, it shouldn't be open. This is important. Create a Seneschal in the House to guide its identity.
We have this now. The problem we're seeing is that more often than not, if a GM isn't leading something, not a whole lot happens. I understand the appeal of a GM leading things, but like all the players, we cannot always be responsible for providing stories, activities, and events. This game's draw is that it is supposed to be player driven.
Janus wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:12 am Number 3 had been done before, didn't work out. Also it is the Monastery. ;) I think it is important to recognize players in this moment. Some players have characters that are tied into a place and time with a shared narrative. It is asking a lot of the players to break immersion in the game that requires full immersion. And honestly, the narrative changes you've provided don't make much difference. People are mostly the same.
The issue is we're not seeing immersion. We're seeing a few players here and there log in, stand around chatting or trancing, collect some mission items and log back out again. Most of the events being held are done by GMs. We would really like to see interest pick up and for players to start driving the story again.
Janus wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:12 amNumber 4 was probably a bad idea but I respect the try. Ultimately, you fill the field with distractions. If you are trying to cultivate House cultures, you should invest in the Houses and eliminating Guilds.
At the point in time when we did this, we weren't specifically looking to cultivate house culture. We were looking to provide something of interest to players and the house we used was empty and hardly visited by players. We eliminated Guilds coming into this version because we wanted to focus on houses again. The only guilds that remain are the Focus Guilds, though largely inactive. There is also the Forge Guild run by Lumira, and the Teaching Guild lead by Azlan.

What do you think we could bring to houses that would generate more interest from players and cause them to take charge?
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Brother Timothy wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:29 am I hope no one minds that the oldest freespirit in the game is commenting on this. First off a house does not need to be at war, or be in conflict. Sure, I have seen players come out of the wood work when there are house wars, but they vanish back in just as quickly. What a house needs is not conflict so much as achievable goals.
House beliefs often seem to be ignored for convenience.
I agree that beliefs are ignored often times.
Brother Timothy wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:29 am GM's should not be obvious characters in the houses with players. A house run by GM's is going to attract folks who believe they will be able to advance faster. This includes seneschals. It will also attract people who think something will happen because obviously this house has the GM seal of approval. However a house with a regular member character that just happens to be run by a GM controller, whose purpose is to keep tabs on what the house is doing and offer suggestions like any normal character, is not a bad idea.
We have GMs playing player characters in houses. Sometimes they've been in ranked positions, but many times when we do that players think we're just abusing our position as a GM to benefit our player characters and not giving non-GM players the opportunity to lead anything. We can't even make new player characters to help push things because the second someone finds out a certain character is being run by a GM, the information spreads like wildfire throughout the community.
Brother Timothy wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:29 am Rewards, you want people to be active? Most people need rewards. Say me and my buddies open the EA. opening the house is a great reward for that RP. But what if when the house was opened not all of the rooms were. Well then me and my buddies would have to further RP to open other rooms and each time the opening of a room would be a reward. But if we did RP after RP and got no reward well eventually we would tire and give up. This also goes for individual characters. If you want individuals to participate in your RP first you need to have a place for them, and second they need to be rewarded.
I like the idea of opening a house, but not all of it. Having players have to continue to push to rebuild the house could definitely be an interesting concept. Perhaps we will give that a try and see how well it works.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Tary »

So, first of all, take my opinion with a big ol' bag of salt because I don't play at all. That being said, I have played in the past and the weaknesses of the guild system as detailed above are nothing new. That being said, my opinion is somewhat different from everyone else's for several reasons:
1) As someone who's intimately familiar with the code that makes up Underlight, I believe it can and should be changed to fit the change in the community.
2) As a corollary to the above, or as a direct result of it, I believe GMs should have little to zero involvement with the day-to-day running of Underlight.
3) Nearly every institution in Underlight was designed to create, foster and foment conflict.
4) A game lacking conflict is not a game.
These principles are going to guide the rest of this post - so if you disagree with those, then you'll likely disagree with the rest of this.

Let me start from the back, because I suspect that's a contentious statement - however do remember that conflict exists in many forms. It does not have to mean chak-slinging mayhem, although that is certainly one form of conflict. At its core, conflict is simply divisiveness. Conflict makes the game interesting, makes you come back to keep playing. Whether it's lively debate, stealing essences from people, mocking the "squids" or whatever - conflict is why you keep coming back.

The problem - perhaps the core issue at the heart of Underlight, really - is that conflict (in UL, at least) relies on other people. Without other people there's no conflict. Without conflict there's no fun. Without fun there's no people. And so you have a spiral of lacking people breeding lack of fun breeding lack of people. Solving this problem is hard because you need to somehow convince a critical mass of people to dream with regularity to encourage others to join. I realize I'm pointing out the obvious here - the playerbase size has always been an issue - but rather than try to solve that (it's really, really hard) directly, I'd rather work around it completely.

I believe all houses should be opened - or openable - by players, directly, without GM intervention. I'm not certain how that mechanic should work, and certainly it would have to be worked out, but I think that a mechanism should be developed such that players can cause houses to be opened (or closed!) without GM intervention. And, indeed, players should be able to independently open (and, possibly, close) houses without GM intervention. Yes, opening a house would require many players to band together, but I believe we should develop a mechanism that allows players to do so asynchronously. That is: everyone has different schedules, playing times, free time. Some of us have insomnia, some of us have kids, some of us can play UL one-handed while driving a truck with our other hand. But rather than try to force people to come together, all at the same time, let's steer into the skid instead and say, "Nah, you just need X00,000 essences and 3 player heads of the first ruler and 2 guardians." Or whatever. You don't need everyone together, you just need people to play at some time to contribute.

I believe all houses should be openable and opened because I believe houses should also be closeable as a function of war and conflict. The guild system should be dynamic and fluid, it should not be static and stagnant. I want to see houses fall and rise. I want to build out - with code, yes! - the capability to have one house take over another forcefully, then get pushed out. I want war to have consequence.

Reread that last sentence, because I think - ultimately - that's the biggest reason war sucks in Underlight today. War has no consequence. Not in the way I mean. Yes, war is annoying because you collapse and lose XP. But losing XP is just losing time - it's a punishment to the controller. That's not fun. Punishing the controller makes people quit. But causing the house to close isn't a punishment for the controller - it's a punishment for the character. And the character can always reopen the house, or open a new house.

I once drafted a "declare war" proposal for Underlight and I still have it. I mostly still like the idea but it definitely could use tweaking. The upshot of it was that war was a "state of the game." When one house formally declared war on another, it caused the game to enter a war state. Once in a war state you can no longer gain XP or lose XP as a result of collapsing or being collapsed. War boiled down to gathering essences of players in the "other house" and weakening the house with those essences until the opponent forfeited or their prime strength dropped to zero. War would have a time limit and a score and at the end there would be a winner and a loser. The point here isn't to rehash this specific idea, it's to point out that war can and should be FUN, but with consequence (or reward) to the CHARACTER without punishing the PLAYER.

I believe that if we build out systems in such a way that:
1) Give players a degree of autonomy over how they advance in the guild system
2) Give players the ability to cooperate asynchronously via in-game mechanics such that we don't require a critical mass of simultaneously playing people
3) Limit penalty to players while rewarding characters
we will naturally grow the player-base as a result because it will motivate people to play even when they're all alone, because they still have an attainable goal (open that house! close that house!)

I realize I'm being hand-wavey here. I haven't given a formal proposal. I think that in order to invest in a formal proposal for the guild system we need to agree on the fundamental points above first (and again, they're just my opinion, they're not necessarily the only way to do things). If we can agree to those I think we can develop a guild system that caters to a smaller, more temporally diverse playerbase that will ultimately grow the playerbase organically by encouraging solo play (or a type of cooperative play that doesn't require active presence at all times) rather than discouraging it. Incidentally, the same principles above would apply to the teaching system as well although that's a whole other can of worms.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cricket »

Brother Timothy wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:29 am Say me and my buddies open the EA. opening the house is a great reward for that RP. But what if when the house was opened not all of the rooms were. Well then me and my buddies would have to further RP to open other rooms and each time the opening of a room would be a reward. But if we did RP after RP and got no reward well eventually we would tire and give up. This also goes for individual characters. If you want individuals to participate in your RP first you need to have a place for them, and second they need to be rewarded.
I like this idea and this is something we are really going to think on. But, it also sparked another thought.

If the house opens gradually as the house grows in strength and activity, the same goes when the house loses activity, strength and its members instead of us having to close a house......It weakens and portal by portal close over time and parts of the house is not accessibly.

It seems like when a house closes because it loses down its members, its very discouraging for the people that are typically left and they end up either leaving the game, or losing interest. If instead of closing, we just close parts of the house, it leaves incitive to build it back up, but at the same time those few people aren't left with single vaults to themselves, but rather have something to work towards to get their house fully opened back up.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Tary wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:15 pm So, first of all, take my opinion with a big ol' bag of salt because I don't play at all. That being said, I have played in the past and the weaknesses of the guild system as detailed above are nothing new. That being said, my opinion is somewhat different from everyone else's for several reasons:
1) As someone who's intimately familiar with the code that makes up Underlight, I believe it can and should be changed to fit the change in the community.
2) As a corollary to the above, or as a direct result of it, I believe GMs should have little to zero involvement with the day-to-day running of Underlight.
3) Nearly every institution in Underlight was designed to create, foster and foment conflict.
4) A game lacking conflict is not a game.
These principles are going to guide the rest of this post - so if you disagree with those, then you'll likely disagree with the rest of this.
Tary wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:15 pm Let me start from the back, because I suspect that's a contentious statement - however do remember that conflict exists in many forms. It does not have to mean chak-slinging mayhem, although that is certainly one form of conflict. At its core, conflict is simply divisiveness. Conflict makes the game interesting, makes you come back to keep playing. Whether it's lively debate, stealing essences from people, mocking the "squids" or whatever - conflict is why you keep coming back.
I agree 100% that conflict drives the game.
Tary wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:15 pm The problem - perhaps the core issue at the heart of Underlight, really - is that conflict (in UL, at least) relies on other people. Without other people there's no conflict. Without conflict there's no fun. Without fun there's no people. And so you have a spiral of lacking people breeding lack of fun breeding lack of people. Solving this problem is hard because you need to somehow convince a critical mass of people to dream with regularity to encourage others to join. I realize I'm pointing out the obvious here - the playerbase size has always been an issue - but rather than try to solve that (it's really, really hard) directly, I'd rather work around it completely.

I believe all houses should be opened - or openable - by players, directly, without GM intervention. I'm not certain how that mechanic should work, and certainly it would have to be worked out, but I think that a mechanism should be developed such that players can cause houses to be opened (or closed!) without GM intervention. And, indeed, players should be able to independently open (and, possibly, close) houses without GM intervention. Yes, opening a house would require many players to band together, but I believe we should develop a mechanism that allows players to do so asynchronously. That is: everyone has different schedules, playing times, free time. Some of us have insomnia, some of us have kids, some of us can play UL one-handed while driving a truck with our other hand. But rather than try to force people to come together, all at the same time, let's steer into the skid instead and say, "Nah, you just need X00,000 essences and 3 player heads of the first ruler and 2 guardians." Or whatever. You don't need everyone together, you just need people to play at some time to contribute.
This is an idea I would be interested in exploring more.
Tary wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:15 pm I believe all houses should be openable and opened because I believe houses should also be closeable as a function of war and conflict. The guild system should be dynamic and fluid, it should not be static and stagnant. I want to see houses fall and rise. I want to build out - with code, yes! - the capability to have one house take over another forcefully, then get pushed out. I want war to have consequence.

Reread that last sentence, because I think - ultimately - that's the biggest reason war sucks in Underlight today. War has no consequence. Not in the way I mean. Yes, war is annoying because you collapse and lose XP. But losing XP is just losing time - it's a punishment to the controller. That's not fun. Punishing the controller makes people quit. But causing the house to close isn't a punishment for the controller - it's a punishment for the character. And the character can always reopen the house, or open a new house.
I also like conflict to have consequence. Too many times has the losing side of a conflict "won" simply by ignoring the conflict completely because they know nothing will happen.
Tary wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:15 pm I once drafted a "declare war" proposal for Underlight and I still have it. I mostly still like the idea but it definitely could use tweaking. The upshot of it was that war was a "state of the game." When one house formally declared war on another, it caused the game to enter a war state. Once in a war state you can no longer gain XP or lose XP as a result of collapsing or being collapsed. War boiled down to gathering essences of players in the "other house" and weakening the house with those essences until the opponent forfeited or their prime strength dropped to zero. War would have a time limit and a score and at the end there would be a winner and a loser. The point here isn't to rehash this specific idea, it's to point out that war can and should be FUN, but with consequence (or reward) to the CHARACTER without punishing the PLAYER.

I believe that if we build out systems in such a way that:
1) Give players a degree of autonomy over how they advance in the guild system
2) Give players the ability to cooperate asynchronously via in-game mechanics such that we don't require a critical mass of simultaneously playing people
3) Limit penalty to players while rewarding characters
we will naturally grow the player-base as a result because it will motivate people to play even when they're all alone, because they still have an attainable goal (open that house! close that house!)

I realize I'm being hand-wavey here. I haven't given a formal proposal. I think that in order to invest in a formal proposal for the guild system we need to agree on the fundamental points above first (and again, they're just my opinion, they're not necessarily the only way to do things). If we can agree to those I think we can develop a guild system that caters to a smaller, more temporally diverse playerbase that will ultimately grow the playerbase organically by encouraging solo play (or a type of cooperative play that doesn't require active presence at all times) rather than discouraging it. Incidentally, the same principles above would apply to the teaching system as well although that's a whole other can of worms.
I would be interested in reading through your proposal.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Eton »

Koi-Cryptic wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:29 pm Hello Players,

I'm reaching out to the community to get some input in regard to the houses. The current situation with them is not leading to anything consistent as far as in game stories go. Over the last few years we have tried different things to revive the houses. We've tried letting them be completely player run, we've tried having some GM run, we've tried having a GM seneschal in every house specific to its beliefs, and we've tried having houses assume the role of former guilds that were previously present within the game. Here's a few things that we've noticed.

1) The houses always fall stagnant for one reason or another. When they were completely player run, the houses didn't really do anything. Players would just enter the game to keep their crests, or just show up and stand around using the houses only for storage of mission items.

2) When we put a GM in every house, it was working at first, but we noticed over time that if a GM wasn't present, the house didn't do anything. I think maybe there was a belief that if a GM wasn't there, then they couldn't do anything? GM involvement is not a requirement for roleplaying to happen in the game. If you want something to directly affect another house or players in general, like setting an trap with area effects or something, then yes a GM would be required for that. GM presence hasn't been terribly consistent lately with the few houses that are open, so maybe if there was that thought that we were required, perhaps that has lead to some of the stagnation we're seeing.

3) We opened a few GM run houses such as KoES, but players seem to have ignored the RP potential of having a darkmare house. It seems players just want darkmares to come out and feed them XP and special items. We did an RP where a darkmare tried to revive Tehthu, and people just kind of stood there and watched. Activity could be greater here from the team if players are interested in actually pursuing these things.

4) We tried opening a house as not even a house, but more of an RP tool. Using different rooms of the houses to give tools for different types or roleplays like forging items, manipulating avatars, and more. Players never used it and no matter how many times it was explained that it wasn't a house, people still asked what the beliefs were and who were the members.

These are just some of the things we've noticed, and we're hoping to get some input from the playerbase because we are running out of ideas. How can the houses be used in a way that players would participate in? Is there just no interest in houses and people just want crests and storage? The houses as they are haven't been doing a lot, and a few RPs here and there is great, but it is not active. Presence alone doesn't make a house active. We can't stipulate minimum membership with a lower playerbase, because there just isn't enough people for that. GMs cannot be responsible for planning, executing, and maintaining all RPs or storylines. We are supposed to be supporting the players, but lately it seems more like the players think they have to support us for anything to happen. I certainly hope that we have not given that impression.

A few ideas that have been tossed around:
1) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening them with the original beliefs and leaving them closed until players band together to pursue those houses.

2) Closing the houses as they are now and just reopening all of them and making them all public space with no rank/crest locked portals.

In closing, this post isn't meant to point fingers or place blame on anyone. We all share the responsibility of making this game a fun place to be. The issues with the houses are a shared result of both the GM team and the players. The community as a whole seems to have just lost their spark for houses. What can we do to breathe life back into them? Please reply to this thread with any suggestions you may have.
Hello everyone,

It's great to see that the GM team is open to feedback and suggestions on how to improve the houses in the game. I understand that the current situation is not leading to anything consistent as far as in-game stories go, and the houses are falling stagnant for one reason or another.

I would like to suggest a few ideas that might help to make the houses more active and get players involved again:

Provide incentives for participating in house-related activities: Perhaps you could offer rewards or bonuses for participating in house-related activities, such as completing missions or attending meetings. These rewards could be in the form of XP, special items, or other in-game benefits. This would encourage players to get more involved with their houses and help to create a sense of competition between different houses.

Create more inter-house conflicts: You could create more inter-house conflicts or rivalries, which would encourage players to get more involved with their houses and compete against other houses. This could be done through events, missions, or other in-game activities.

Encourage players to take on leadership roles: You could encourage players to take on leadership roles within their houses, such as seneschals or other leadership positions. This would give players more control over their houses and help to create a sense of ownership and responsibility.

Provide more support for player-run houses: You could provide more support for player-run houses by offering resources and guidance for players who want to create their own houses. This would help to create more variety and diversity within the houses, and would encourage players to take a more active role in shaping the game's story.

Create more house-specific content: You could create more content that is specific to each house, such as missions, events, and storylines that are tailored to each house's beliefs and values. This would help to make each house feel more unique and interesting, and would encourage players to get more involved with their houses.

In summary, I believe that providing incentives, creating more inter-house conflicts, encouraging players to take on leadership roles, providing more support for player-run houses, and creating more house-specific content could help to make the houses more active and get players involved again. I hope that these suggestions are helpful, and I look forward to seeing how the GM team will continue to improve the game in the future.
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Koi-Cryptic
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cryptic »

Eton wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:34 pm Hello everyone,

It's great to see that the GM team is open to feedback and suggestions on how to improve the houses in the game. I understand that the current situation is not leading to anything consistent as far as in-game stories go, and the houses are falling stagnant for one reason or another.

I would like to suggest a few ideas that might help to make the houses more active and get players involved again:

Provide incentives for participating in house-related activities: Perhaps you could offer rewards or bonuses for participating in house-related activities, such as completing missions or attending meetings. These rewards could be in the form of XP, special items, or other in-game benefits. This would encourage players to get more involved with their houses and help to create a sense of competition between different houses.
Rulers, Guardians, and the house seneschals have the ability to give XP rewards via the mission boards. One of the reasons for my post was to try and find a way to get players active with their houses again. From my point of view, if we have to give players additional rewards or bonuses such as more XP, special items, or other in-game benefits just to participate in house events and house meetings, then the house itself is obviously not interesting enough for the player to want to particpate on their own. This is basically paying people to play the game. If the house and its beliefs aren't interesting enough that the player wants to take part in it, then that player shouldn't be in that house or if no one is interested, then the house should close.
Eton wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:34 pm Create more inter-house conflicts: You could create more inter-house conflicts or rivalries, which would encourage players to get more involved with their houses and compete against other houses. This could be done through events, missions, or other in-game activities.
I like the idea of inter-house conflict. Players can just as easily create these conflicts as GMs can. Also, if there is interest in having house competitions, we can certainly look into that sort of thing.
Eton wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:34 pm Encourage players to take on leadership roles: You could encourage players to take on leadership roles within their houses, such as seneschals or other leadership positions. This would give players more control over their houses and help to create a sense of ownership and responsibility.
Players currently have leadership roles. One reasoning for the post is that it doesn't seem like many players in leadership positions want to push things on their own. There seems to be a reliance on GM presence/participation for things to happen. We are trying to get back to where players are driving the story and not just waiting for the GMs to come up with something new.
Eton wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:34 pm Provide more support for player-run houses: You could provide more support for player-run houses by offering resources and guidance for players who want to create their own houses. This would help to create more variety and diversity within the houses, and would encourage players to take a more active role in shaping the game's story.
Players that have ideas for houses are always welcome to reach out to the GM team for opinions or guidance. Also, players can reach out to Leonard Scruff or Bastion for help with their house needs in game. There is currently a group of players working towards opening OOSM soon.
Eton wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:34 pm Create more house-specific content: You could create more content that is specific to each house, such as missions, events, and storylines that are tailored to each house's beliefs and values. This would help to make each house feel more unique and interesting, and would encourage players to get more involved with their houses.
We would really like to try and get the players to drive their own stories. GMs can come up with things here and there, and when we do, we put them in game. However, one of the selling points to the game is that the players drive the story. GMs cannot be responsible for every story and event. Honestly, that's not fair to the players if we controlled everything that much. How do you think we can get the players to push these things?
Eton wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:34 pm In summary, I believe that providing incentives, creating more inter-house conflicts, encouraging players to take on leadership roles, providing more support for player-run houses, and creating more house-specific content could help to make the houses more active and get players involved again. I hope that these suggestions are helpful, and I look forward to seeing how the GM team will continue to improve the game in the future.
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PKChrisChan
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by PKChrisChan »

I mean you already do this with the market. I think that integration of those rewards the market has with houses makes the houses the focus instead of the Essence hunting.

Personally, I find RPing enjoyable. I don't even need rewards. I find sharing imagination to be highly enjoyable. When it comes to GM events and trying to RP with GM content. It is not as satisfying because more often than not the outcome has to "benefit everyone" or make it seem "no one is playing favorites" othwerwise, other players complain or become contemptuous. Or the story doesn't have any influential outcome like the big bad saying " Oh, your week long effort in the mares tasted bad" but proceeding to do whatever they want. I generally have taken a step back in expecting anything mass scale(GM lead) to have a reasonable impact. I still participate and lead sometimes in these events, but I do not get overly involved. If you want more details, and for the fact of not making people or GMs feel singled out/flamed. I can go into details on this privately.

The Rewards being focused on houses, would give the casuals and emphant essence collectors something to work towards with other players. Perhaps some seneschal oversight with it. Seneschals/Rulers could make the missions, and integrate these missions with the story, or whatever the need for house goals. They could have the same rewards as what is out now.
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by Koi-Cricket »

You may not be very familiar with the missions and market.

“Collecting emphant essences” is a market thing, it gives you silver to use to purchase items from the market.

It is basically hunting, which has always been a part of the game. People hunt and collect xp and items, but we’ve created a way to basically trade in those essence to purchase needed items from the market.

Now the missions themselves, we have several dozen stored and trade them out. Some do include attending an event, or requiring a specific type of tasks. Etc.

The missions give you rewards for setting out and doing specific tasks. Essentially it relates to tasking, but you gain other things instead of the plat.

The missions have given people a reason to hunt again, to gen again. Basically the missions are getting people out of thresh and doing all the things that there is to do in game. But calling it a mission and setting out to collect certain things and hunt specific things has made it challenging and that’s why people like it instead of oh I need some shields, let me go sit in Caudal for five hours. I can go hunt and collect silver instead, which might be someone else’s cup of tea rather than genning.

If you guys are suggesting that we add in missions that will help revolve around houses, we can definitely do that.

I can either add them to the missions we currently have and go that route. Or Scruff can post house missions on the mission boards and we can do house missions that way, or as you said, the seneshals. Even house rulers that have good forge. I’m sure Scruff or the Seneshals would support the ruler in supplying the reward for the mission that the Ruler sets the house out to do.

Thanks for the idea guys. I like it!
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Re: The Great Houses - Input Requested

Post by PKChrisChan »

If you guys are suggesting that we add in missions that will help revolve around houses, we can definitely do that
This is precisely what I am asking! And a little collaboration from house leadership. Thank you!
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