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Maren REDO!

This is a game for roleplayers. We want your ideas how how to build the better game. Post your suggestions here.
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Black Cloud
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Maren REDO!

Post by Black Cloud » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:40 pm

Alright, so this might be a touchy subject but hear me out.

The other night I was a part of a pretty interesting RP involving several Darkmares, and the few dreamers that were there seemed to be caught in the middle of all of it. We fought for a while, but it all started and ended with a conflict between the mares themselves. As the RP played out, none of the dreamers present could really translate Maren. I think the new mare doesn't speak traditional maren, so spare me if that's how it was meant to be. However, I was helpless and so were the others when it came to decoding what the Darkmare was trying to convey. It literally turned in to a game of charades with guess after guess.

This is cool n all, but there's a big issue. I eventually got bored and gave up on what was actually very cool and fun, but some left before me and I got the sense that everybody was losing interest because it was too hard to translate and there was no alternative.

Side-note: I know that there was a lot of time and effort put in to creating and learning the Maren language. However, the are only a few dreamers left who know anything about maren. The whole process is just slow..

Suggestion: Rather than controllers of Darks speaking maren and us translating.. how about their speech is automatically scrambled to look like gibberish, sort of the way it works for Daymares. Introduce and art along the lines of "Maren" or "Maren Tongue" (come up with something clever) but the art basically de-scrambles the gibberish. In this case, the only way to understand the dark mare would be to evoke the art which allows you to communicate with mares by showing you what they are saying. In this case it would be on the controller of the Dark to make it sound dark-like.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by PKChrisChan » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:06 am

Totally agree.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Mengyao » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:42 am

I learned I suck at charades.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Uthanatos » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:28 pm

I'm not sure how I feel about it, one of the big distinctions between UL and most MMOs is that it's not a gear grinding, autoattack, ability faceroll. Just like learning to fight effectively, and learning the history of the dream, deciphering the political atmosphere, learning maren takes a certain amount of dedication. I'm probably biased though, because I actually went through the effort to do it.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Toregord » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:18 pm

I whole heartedly agree cloud
Last edited by Toregord on Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Cherokee » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:19 am

If the whole aspect of the RP was “very cool and fun” I fail to see how it devolved into boredom. Then again, not all roleplays are for everyone! I see no point in creating a translation art. You might as well skip a few steps and have the DMs speak dreamer. That’s not to mention we don’t even have a dev team to create such a thing.

From my understanding, Darkmares were never meant to be fully understood. They’re foreign creatures of chaos. The very definition of chaos is complete disorder and confusion. You should be confused, even if you did take the time to learn their language. Maren is one of the many unique aspects of Underlight.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by PKChrisChan » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:56 am

Cherokee wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:19 am
If the whole aspect of the RP was “very cool and fun” I fail to see how it devolved into boredom. Then again, not all roleplays are for everyone! I see no point in creating a translation art. You might as well skip a few steps and have the DMs speak dreamer. That’s not to mention we don’t even have a dev team to create such a thing.

From my understanding, Darkmares were never meant to be fully understood. They’re foreign creatures of chaos. The very definition of chaos is complete disorder and confusion. You should be confused, even if you did take the time to learn their language. Maren is one of the many unique aspects of Underlight.
Ignoring the old PC vs DoL attitude and tone and I hope no one even engages with this passive aggression.

The root of the issue regardless of the creation of an art or not could be that a different RP approach could be taken. Having a mare try to communicate through emotes and then get frustrated when it's not understood definitely was not my cup of tea. We're all at different levels/understandings of RPing and we all have room to grow and change.

That includes both players and GMs. Keep in mind that GMs can enforce consequences on players who are intentionally disengaged. If we just left without giving him a chance to interact or define his character, on his multiple appearances. That would be close minded and even more rude. This is where all this passive aggression and backbiting stems from.

You may not see a point in certain things but it was just a suggestion. This is not an attack on anyone's ability to RP and its easy to get all defensive.

RP with the people who make the game fun for you.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by -Lacie- » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:09 pm

So this is what I was SUPPOSE to hear from the GM team about Cloud's suggestion:

"Wow! This sounds like a cool idea! We will definitely make notes about this so when we DO have a DEV team, it'll be on the list of possible things to do! Thank you, Cloud!"

The condescending attitude (I refer to ...)
I fail to see how it devolved into boredom. Then again, not all roleplays are for everyone!


This is uncalled for. You failed to see. Ok, so move on, don't blame others for not being able to see your lack of portraying your message. And this is why I don't attend some events. I don't want my SNORING to interrupt the soliloquy or monologue.

Now, as to Cloud's suggestion: I realize that the GM's have stifled our ability to work on new arts, planes, etc. by not attaining qualified staff to do what the player-base would like to see. We, the player-base, are doing our best to entertain ourselves... ANYWAY.

Cloud - I love the Art idea. Ya know, the duration could lengthen with plateaus! And of course, the quests could be about learning Maren, to incorporate old with new! Just a thought!

As to the Kotoke trying something new... I'm all for this! It forces the Kotoke to learn to communicate with Dreamers and visa versa, and is a good chance for those who want to improve their role-playing skills!

A suggestion to the Kotoke - When you're playing charades with dreamers, use more and better props! Visual aids work well!

~fin - end of rant~
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Aileron » Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:44 pm

Wow...uh..well okay. I don't really think what Cherokee was trying to say was passive aggressive towards anything. We can all have our own thoughts and voice them without people getting instantly pissy about them (or so I would hope, because we are all adults here).

These forums are meant to be used constructively and to share ideas that may or may not be favored among others. And differing opinions shouldn't be met with remarks that try to belittle the person making them. We don't have to get along with each other, nor agree with each other. But damn, let's not be assholes to each other, especially when our community is small enough as it is. Better to show a more understanding front then what I am seeing here from some.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by PKChrisChan » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:27 pm

Aileron wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:44 pm
Wow...uh..well okay. I don't really think what Cherokee was trying to say was passive aggressive towards anything. We can all have our own thoughts and voice them without people getting instantly pissy about them (or so I would hope, because we are all adults here).

These forums are meant to be used constructively and to share ideas that may or may not be favored among others. And differing opinions shouldn't be met with remarks that try to belittle the person making them. We don't have to get along with each other, nor agree with each other. But damn, let's not be assholes to each other, especially when our community is small enough as it is. Better to show a more understanding front then what I am seeing here from some.

Just my two cents.
Okay.

Assuming that this response was made in good faith and not because of your friendship with Cherokee.

This sort of bias is easy to overlook. We are a collective of separate groups with varied styles of RPing. Nothing is wrong with that. We've established that someone like my RP may differ from a lyran. It's an ambiguous term.

Cloud was offering suggestions and a number of players agreed. She disagreed but that tone is "belittling". Let's not pretend that's not where this started.

How about this? There isn't much of a difference between a GM RP and a player one. You have as much room to grow/change/adapt as a player. So just like, Purple Lace or I have scrapped ideas to try new ones. If people aren't liking it, try a new approach. Let's not enforce consequences on the community or think "it's GM hating". These are YOUR ideas and not "for the players".

The player response to forced RPs is disengagement. It's a fragile situation in which players should be allowed to voice opinions and not be "shut down" by esteemed members of the community.

Player 1: This is a fragile statement. I didn't like how this panned out. Here is my idea.
Player 2: I like this engagement. It is a good part of the game. (Disagreement)
Player 3: I fail to see how this wasn't good enough. This is how it is. Not gonna change. (Disagreement)

It looks like Player 3 is trying to just shut down this whole discussion.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Koi-Wish » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:35 pm

Its a roleplaying game, with participation for the most part utterly by choice. You can participate or you can choose not to. Just like you can Launch UL or not. The environment around the players will continue whether they are in the game, in the room or not, with those whom choose to engage.

But this? Really?
"I realize that the GM's have stifled our ability to work on new arts, planes, etc. by not attaining qualified staff to do what the player-base would like to see. We, the player-base, are doing our best to entertain ourselves... ANYWAY"

The GMs had nothing to do with it. Period. Its a VOLUNTEER team, GMs, Coders... everyone. And the code is out there for the everyone to see AND code new feautures that could be pulled in. We have attained the world to potentially code, thats a lot of volunteer employees. I cant help the volunteer staff, the aforementioned entire planet, has not been coding recently. So, give the GMs grief for that, good idea, its their fault <insert sarcasm>. Volunteers COULD start coding things YOU would like to see. Meanwhile, WE, the GM team are doing our best to entertain you..... ANYWAY.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by PKChrisChan » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:50 pm

Koi-Wish wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:35 pm
The GMs had nothing to do with it. Period. Its a VOLUNTEER team, GMs, Coders... everyone. And the code is out there for the everyone to see AND code new feautures that could be pulled in. We have attained the world to potentially code, thats a lot of volunteer employees. I cant help the volunteer staff, the aforementioned entire planet, has not been coding recently. So, give the GMs grief for that, good idea, its their fault <insert sarcasm>. Volunteers COULD start coding things YOU would like to see. Meanwhile, WE, the GM team are doing our best to entertain you..... ANYWAY.
Thank you, Wish. However, the fact that these changes could be rejected based on a "this is how it is and going to be" notion is discouraging.

There are a number of coders like me, who do not being in the dark about the state of putting in 10+ hours. The forums are the only visibility we Open Sourcers have.

And actually, I literally just helped code Clouds suggestion elsewhere. Quite ironic he brought this up.
Meanwhile, WE, the GM team are doing our best to entertain you..... ANYWAY


Maybe some of you.....
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Koi-Donut » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:29 pm

I think some/most people fail to realize how intensely difficult it is to find people who are willing to learn how to and actually implement changes in the game, all completely pro bono. It is really difficult. It is - in many ways - more difficult than learning to code/build a modern game. It is all trial and error, no online tutorials. From both a coding and level editing perspective. Not to mention patching servers and rebuilding files from ~1995. The changes in this version have taken many hundreds of hours of work for people, who (for the most part), don't even actively play anymore. They just love the game and want to make it better. On top of hours of unpaid frustrating work, a lot of us actually pitch in money to cover costs associated with keeping the game running and/or upgrading it.

No GM is stifling your ability to work on new arts, planes, etc. They may not make it in from a technical/code/level standpoint, but you can RP creating whatever Art you want, whatever aesthetic change you want, etc. The amount of change that has happened in this version compared to previous makes this particular statement both ridiculous and beyond offensive/ungrateful. You don't have to like us as individuals, but a lot of us have put in a LOT of time to improve the game itself to be met with "we're stifling progress because we won't staff the team with qualified people". You can have complaints about the GM team and I often agree...but this complaint is just factually wrong.


As to Cloud's particular idea, I always found Maren annoying as a player (and as a GM), but it is indeed a defining part of this game. I think that's something that would need more discussion and consensus from everyone.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Black Cloud » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:19 pm

Alright.. wow, lets see.. i told ya it'd be a touchy subject lol.

If, for example, we keep Maren the way it is, it would be pretty cool if Maren was more integrated into the little things. Like darkish rooms and areas could have Maren descriptions. Old Maren texts which have to be translated to be understood and have deep roots and history in the world we play in. Books which may require months or years to translate because they need to be rediscovered in pieces. Old maren puzzles which require knowledge of their language to complete. Creating a new language is a bold step because it requires, in my opinion, a deeper devotion than any other aspect of this game.

Maybe im not a good enough RPer to learn a new language, but I'm good enough to act or believe that i have. The time spent decoding could be spent further enhancing the RP. i believe such an art should require a high sphere, at least 6th because learning Maren should be reserved for the most accomplished. I know it's off the table completely until we have a dev(s), however just try to imagine the flexibility and speed at which DMs and dreamers can communicate if we get rid of the translating process. I dont like the idea that DMs are never meant to be fully understood as Cherokee mentioned because if one really wanted to, they could communicate with an expert level in Maren if they really tried, and in some cases this dreamer may be better versed in Maren than the DMs controller. It's not necessary that the DM speaks better Maren than a particular dreamer.

We've all seen dreamers successfully translating for the past two decades, and again, i always admired their devotion and relied on them even in those times. But we can't realistically expect most players to pickup a fictional language, and if you really think about it, using the maren dictionary is, in essence, OOC. We dont have any in-game dictionary, classes, arts, or any requirements whatsoever to hint that we have an IC source to learn Maren.

And, ill go ahead and say that this isnt just about making it easy only for the players but also for DM controllers because it must take a lot of effort to prepare the dialogue for the RP and then have to improvise based on the responses.

If most of us enjoy this process then I'll understand and continue as is. But it's definitely worth thinking about and acquiring a consensus.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Black Cloud » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:37 pm

Just wanted to add that i dont want the focus of this discussion to be whether or not its possible RIGHT NOW and if the GM team is doing their job, thats not my intention at all. Rather, I just want to see if its a viable idea or not for the community.

Also, as Lace mentioned, more descriptive emotes can go a long way. Even if the maren isnt being understood, emotes should be used almost as a cheat to describe what the DM is saying and feeling, i dont think their anything wrong with that. Emotes should express emotions, intent, desires, hostility or lack thereof, and anything else needed to complete the picture. To be honest more descriptive emotes may be a better solution to the problem.

And, i know weve had people make some type of in game dictionary on codi, held maren classes, etc, just saying thats not where most players learn maren, which may not be a good enough argument but still has some grounds.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Uthanatos » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:46 pm

Just wanted to put in a point. It's been stated that anything "fished from the chaos" IE on the web is admissible as IC as long as it was written IC. That being said, there are a few surviving guides out there to maren language, one primer written by Kudzoo was particularly helpful in the beginning.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Roleplayer » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:15 am

I think the current RP with Ixu'pi is being played excellently by the gm...when someone cant decipher the maren... the gm controller of that dark entity has went above and beyond to draw what it means...to use emotes in simple actions. You want it to understand you it does perfectly, Picco is another fine example, Spika is to. Thank you for making these darkmares fun, Learning maren is like learning Chinese it isnt happening for me. I will never be fluent maren. I still enjoy the maren interactions
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Koi-Wish » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:04 am

For the record, no one on the team said "This is how its going to be" - so being pissed at us because we "could" say it, is not fair. We "could" say anything, being preemptively pissed at something we "could" say is ridiculous.

Another fun fact: the GM client has a "Babble" ability where it takes English and turns it into the garble you sometimes see Picco and others using. She is actually saying things (or rather typing English) and the filter turns it into nonsense - so a counter ability to understand "Babble" may not be that difficult to implement as an art - feel free to code it - and as a Team we will consider the implementation. I, for one, am not against the idea. I rather like it.

Weird, that's also something we "could" say, and just did.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by PKChrisChan » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:26 am

Koi-Wish wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:04 am
For the record, no one on the team said "This is how its going to be" - so being pissed at us because we "could" say it, is not fair. We "could" say anything, being preemptively pissed at something we "could" say is ridiculous.

Another fun fact: the GM client has a "Babble" ability where it takes English and turns it into the garble you sometimes see Picco and others using. She is actually saying things (or rather typing English) and the filter turns it into nonsense - so a counter ability to understand "Babble" may not be that difficult to implement as an art - feel free to code it - and as a Team we will consider the implementation. I, for one, am not against the idea. I rather like it.

Weird, that's also something we "could" say, and just did.
I'm not sure you're catching my drift. Just in the same way that sending in RP ideas and not getting a response, or having to spam the team is discouraging.

Spending a ton of time, just for it to be rejected is also not fun. I have no say to justify an idea or a necessity will make a lot of changes a waste.

With the nature of this community, I'd rather discuss it first then put in the time.

Just like Donut said, it indeed is trial and error and immensely frustrating. However, there are a number of implementations on github you can follow to get a feel for things. But creating new functionality takes things quite a bit further and will definitely be a timesink.

P.S. Thanks Mac for the help unknowingly! Hehe!
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Koi-Wish » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:18 pm

There is an easy answer for this as well tho, and I have told this to many MTs and the GMMTs - dont roleplay or give tasks that REQUIRE a code change. Its that simple. This is not us being discouraging, but it saves heartache and stress on both sides. IF we know a feature is going to be implemented for certain, then I totally encourage RPing or Tasking within the environment. That's not "US" being jerks about anything, that's just us saying play the game within the current limits. I wish the game was utterly and absolutely self-sustaining that it would not even require the intervention of GMs or Coding - and that we could all just roleplay within it. It was this way for many many years before players got to the Spheres and Plats they are requiring today. Now everyone needs elders, it used to just be a handful that were at the mercy of Elders, now its 75% or more of the community are "stuck" without elder intervention, and events are "stuck" without elder support. I have tossed around the idea (in my mind mostly) of just making everyone 9th sphere, full arts - so that arts, plats and spheres are a thing of the past - so we can all instead just Roleplay together without the need of OOC hostility. It would kill the integrity of the game, but it would also kill a lot of headaches. I don't know how many people would even play the game anymore without reachable goals tho.

Regardless my initial point is still the same, roleplay/task within the current restrictions of the City is the easiest approach to not being discouraged by putting tons of hours into something that will never happen.
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by PKChrisChan » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:24 pm

How about we open up another thread on Self Train? Let's start there.

Also, how about a discussion on Player lead RPs for higher spheres that don't require GM support?
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Koi-Drama » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:25 pm

The idea itself is an interesting concept and one that has been explored in different presentations over the last decade or two. The task to discuss and implement is quite an investment that would require consistent discussions, trial and error rotations, and aggressive participation from the community in a isolated [test] environment. That being, of course, just the initial stages. The order is a daunting one but it is not beyond the reach of our talented community.

On the other side of that same coin, you will have players that feel that this approach may feel unnatural and that as a game that sometime emulate the "human approach" in a fantasy setting, deciphering an entire language created by our community should not be as easy as evoking an art. It has taken some players weeks, months, and even years to understand the language itself and naturally, it has evolved with us as a community. One would say that the code may need to be updated periodically which presents another plethora of hurdles.

Brian stated that when Underlight went opensource, the community as a whole and beyond were granted the keys to take on such a venture on their terms from a development stance. In my current experience and observation, the current GM composition of volunteers have been quite receptive and open to both dialogue and presentation of ideas within the framework of the game and its limits.

If you should take a glance back at all the work and efforts donated to the current version of the game, we have made leaps and bounds to a game that was written off before it was even completed by the original development team. It has been that singular drive with a shared passion that has kept Underlight going for the last 20+ years.

In short, Underlight has been the product of a lot of sacrifices from current GMs and a long list of brilliant individuals, some of which are no longer with us but left their legacy engrained in the game itself.

The perception that GMs are somehow biased, elitist, and operating with an agenda at hand is older than the game itself and will never change no matter what the composition of the team is, was, or will become. Moreover, that sort of aggressive contribution should hold no place in the scope of this discussion and would only serve to hinder potential progress.

Cloud, thank you for the opportunity of presenting the topic. It may become the stepping stones towards with lasting impact. In that spirit, I think the challenge presents itself before the OpenSource community. I am certain the community as a whole have both the potential and talent required to tackle it head on.

Be mindful to take a glance at the bigger picture. We have created a masterpiece so far...
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Re: Maren REDO!

Post by Blade » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm

:lol:
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