GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

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Koi-Echelon
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GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Koi-Echelon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:28 pm

I haven’t seen an art suggestion in a while so I’m going to write one!

Art Name: Bulwark
Art Focus: GK
Art Type: Defensive
Art Cost: 15
Sphere Gained: 5th

Art Function: An evokable shield that lasts for x_duration and has z_absorption based on plat (actual numbers to be decided through testing and balancing procedures).


Discuss.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Lu Chaos » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:41 pm

Sounds decent, not a bad idea actually.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Uthanatos » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:43 pm

I'd recomend something like normal protective 1min per plat, but only like 1-2% absorb per plat, since it should stack over worn shields, rather than replace them.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Golah » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:06 pm

I would love to see that art, or some sorta upgrade to ward even, love the shield idea though.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Koi-Citadel » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Target: Self only.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby HarleyofCienn » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:39 pm

I was telling Tember I'd like to see the city guard have some sort of shield. I think this would work perfectly for that but instead of being a gk art it would work more like a house art in tune with the city guard crest/mark and able to be evoked on others or yourself.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Lu Chaos » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:17 pm

lmao

Anyways, yes, Self only, it will be good, however, that means the shield will not break right? It lasts as long as the art lasts? Could be beefy as hell, you guys have to make sure it's not super OP on that end.

Think about a 9th sphered GK with 75% or evne 50% absorb + reflect and the shield lasts long as hell.. That's not fair at all, unless he is fighting an entire house alone or something, but think about if that same GK teamed up with another GK, just doesn't sound like it'll be fair to fight against if you don't put some sort of limit to how beefy you will make the shield we gain. Like GKs will turn into DreamerMares lol.

Just something to think about.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Koi-Echelon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:24 pm

(actual numbers to be decided through testing and balancing procedures).


It would be a compliment to shields, not a replacement.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Lu Chaos » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:33 pm

So basically, if I had a 50% shield on and then cast Bulwark, at 9th sphere im now at how much absorb?
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby HarleyofCienn » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:48 pm

I think Uth kinda nailed where it would be.. in the 1-2% per plat range but as Ech mentioned twice now testing would probably need to happen.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby PKChrisChan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:08 pm

I think this is an excellent idea BUT do GateKeepers/Elder chars really need extra bulk?
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Koi-Echelon » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:05 am

PKChrisChan wrote:I think this is an excellent idea BUT do GateKeepers/Elder chars really need extra bulk?


He figured out I just want an art where I don’t have to juggle shields!
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Cherokee » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:54 am

Koi-Echelon wrote:
PKChrisChan wrote:I think this is an excellent idea BUT do GateKeepers/Elder chars really need extra bulk?


He figured out I just want an art where I don’t have to juggle shields!


For the most part, I don’t know many GKs that actually wear shields; Jade never does. Being a focus that’s primarily in the thick of a battle, we don’t have time to swap shields. So I can see this being very helpful for GKs.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Harkyn » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:17 pm

Do you guys really want Harkyn to be harder to collapse?
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Lu Chaos » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:25 pm

Sorry but if I had a 75% shield on already and my art gave me nore than 20% im invulnerable to damage as a regular PC. Just think about that.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Uthanatos » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:38 pm

Separate stacking, taking 50 damage the art would likely drop it to 40 at that point then the shield would absorb 30, leaving ten to land on you, but the shield still just took 30
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Cherokee » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:43 pm

A 75% absorption shield will blow up after a couple hits. The art would need to be adjusted, -as mentioned multiple times- so that it wouldn’t be OP. The duration and absorption would have to be low, with minor increases per plat.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Koi-Echelon » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:01 pm

As it stands right now, if you use a high absorption shield you won’t have it for long. The addition of a secondary art based shield isn’t going to change that.

I heard complaints that GK’s didn’t have “enough”, so I came up with an idea to give them “more”.

This will not be an “I win button”. You will not be invulnerable. The base and increase would be decided by the testing and balance team, though realistic suggestions are welcome.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Arnaya » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:32 pm

I would suggest something right along the lines of the SM Restore shielding. You could probably bump the base absorption up by 5%.... but not much more if it stacks with shield talisman. I would also suggest that the durability be variable... say random number between 1 and art level, plus 1 to 20? So, best possible result at level 99 would be 120 durability. Average for that would be like 60-70 dura. Base duration, you could probably go 4 minutes plus 4 per plat without it being broken. As a precaution against the "Evoke it 200 times to get Eternal bonus shielding", make it a toggle art like Trail or Mind Blank.

On a related note... would it be possible to get the SM Shielding duration (and only duration) bumped up a little, and/or expand it so that Antidote and Purify also grant it?
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby PKChrisChan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:06 am

He figured out I just want an art where I don’t have to juggle shields!


Yes, juggling shields can be a hassle. But it's a necessary evil to Inventory Management to where the game is not 25 elemens and 25 chaks. The more variety of items the better. If you don't like how shields work, then consider adjusting/discussing how they work directly. There is some middle ground here.

Cherokee wrote:For the most part, I don’t know many GKs that actually wear shields; Jade never does. Being a focus that’s primarily in the thick of a battle, we don’t have time to swap shields. So I can see this being very helpful for GKs.


Jade is not the only GK in the game. I know for a -fact- that quite a few do. You have more than enough time to click a shield and back to an elemen. GKs aren't anymore in the "thick of battle" than any other focus.

I heard complaints that GK’s didn’t have “enough”, so I came up with an idea to give them “more”.


Duration based shielding is overwhelmingly powerful. Especially when multiplied 9th plateau Regeneration/high absorptions shields/restore shielding/reflect(directed at GM chars). Chakrams are by far the best damage in the game. This slight bonus enables GKs to play much more aggressively with Chakrams. Combine Bulwark with a 10-20% shield and they pretty much have permanent 30% protection against damage. 10% shields with 90+ durability need like 20 hits before they vape.

~15 damage off of my 50s is absurd with no hope of it vaping a shield is EXTREMELY strong. And that was Lu's point.

This will not be an “I win button”. You will not be invulnerable. The base and increase would be decided by the testing and balance team, though realistic suggestions are welcome.


Seriously? EVERYTHING in this thread is constructive. Everyone is bringing up valid concerns. Please get some emotional armor and stop de-legitimizing player concerns because of them not being who you like in game. No one is attacking you so please calm down on the sarcasm and the condescending chat.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Golah » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:25 am

Realistic idea as follows

Focus, 50 Will increases resistance to damage with the same basic numbers as our damage buff, with the exception it has to be evoked- If you keep it in line with damage, its not overly powering, and at the same time keeps with the idea of Gatekeepers having a tougher skin than most.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Cherokee » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:43 am

PKChrisChan wrote:
Cherokee wrote:For the most part, I don’t know many GKs that actually wear shields; Jade never does. Being a focus that’s primarily in the thick of a battle, we don’t have time to swap shields. So I can see this being very helpful for GKs.


Jade is not the only GK in the game. I know for a -fact- that quite a few do. You have more than enough time to click a shield and back to an elemen. GKs aren't anymore in the "thick of battle" than any other focus.


Facts are fun! Where in that did I ever say that no one else wears shields because Jade doesn't? I clearly stated that I don't know -many- GKs that wear them.

The focuses were obviously designed to be different, and I'm not saying everyone's playing style fits into the focus they chose. Aside from Dreamquake, GKs do not have real offensive arts that they can cast from ledges. So when they do fight, they're mainly on the ground in the midst of things.
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Lu Chaos » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:16 am

As I said if this is a real idea. As long as its balanced it makes sense. Gks soak up the most damage just dont make it OP
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Koi-Echelon » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:34 am

Duration based shielding is overwhelmingly powerful. Especially when multiplied 9th plateau Regeneration/high absorptions shields/restore shielding/reflect(directed at GM chars).


Allow me to divulge some information. Regeneration, regardless of plateau, is one additional point per tick...that's all. Restore shielding is only active if you are being actively Restored by a SoulMaster. Shields with a high percentage rate of absorption vape very quickly. Reflect is not as good as people seem to think it is, also the percentage rate at which it reflects was actually reduced not so long ago.

Combine Bulwark with a 10-20% shield and they pretty much have permanent 30% protection against damage. 10% shields with 90+ durability need like 20 hits before they vape.

~15 damage off of my 50s is absurd with no hope of it vaping a shield is EXTREMELY strong. And that was Lu's point.


Let's say you have a 20% shield and Bulwark is 10%. They work independently of each other. So, for this example we'll say Bulwark works first, your proposed damage is 1-50 (for the sake of argument we'll go with you hit for a straight 50). Bulwark reduces the damage by 5, so 45 then hits your shield which is then reduced by 9, and you've hit for 35. You weren't far off. Just to have more numbers let's say you hit for 20! Bulwark reduces by 2, then shield reduces by 3.6 (rounded down), so you hit for 15.

Seriously? EVERYTHING in this thread is constructive. Everyone is bringing up valid concerns. Please get some emotional armor and stop de-legitimizing player concerns because of them not being who you like in game. No one is attacking you so please calm down on the sarcasm and the condescending chat.


I'm unsure as to where this offended attitude comes from. The only thing I have stated is that actually numbers would decided at a later time, but welcomed suggestions as to what Players thought those numbers should be. Whether or not the shield should be duration based, if it were absorption based (like shields themselves), or possibly it could break randomly when damage is applied.

I have not picked apart the legitimacy of anyone or their suggestions. Only that there were no set percentages at this time, and they would be decided upon later. So jumping up and shouting that something is broken before it has been fully conceived is getting ahead of yourself.

Sorry but if I had a 75% shield on already and my art gave me nore than 20% im invulnerable to damage as a regular PC. Just think about that.

Separate stacking, taking 50 damage the art would likely drop it to 40 at that point then the shield would absorb 30, leaving ten to land on you, but the shield still just took 30


Huh? In order for Bulwark to reduce 50 damage down to 40 (10 points of reduction) it would have to be 25% reduction, and I'll tell you right now... no, not even at 99. As for the shield absorbing 30... a 75% shield would do this, but in this example your shield would vape in three hits. How many shields are you willing to sacrifice when fights normally drag on for a while?

There is no way to keep a shield from vaping, other than taking it off and switching to another before it vapes, reweaving it later. That includes GM's, we do not have magic shields, the shields GM's use are the same shields Players use and they function in the exact same way.

I hope I have been able to assuage some of your concerns.

So, once again, I welcome comments on how you believe this art should function. For instance, should it be duration based, durability based, or break randomly on damage? What do you believe the base reduction should be, increased by how much per plat? Major or Minor? Cost? What Sphere would it be learned?
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Re: GK Art Suggestion: Bulwark

Postby Uthanatos » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:41 am

Koi-Echelon wrote:
Sorry but if I had a 75% shield on already and my art gave me nore than 20% im invulnerable to damage as a regular PC. Just think about that.

Separate stacking, taking 50 damage the art would likely drop it to 40 at that point then the shield would absorb 30, leaving ten to land on you, but the shield still just took 30


Huh? In order for Bulwark to reduce 50 damage down to 40 (10 points of reduction) it would have to be 25% reduction, and I'll tell you right now... no, not even at 99. As for the shield absorbing 30... a 75% shield would do this, but in this example your shield would vape in three hits. How many shields are you willing to sacrifice when fights normally drag on for a while?

There is no way to keep a shield from vaping, other than taking it off and switching to another before it vapes, reweaving it later. That includes GM's, we do not have magic shields, the shields GM's use are the same shields Players use and they function in the exact same way.

I hope I have been able to assuage some of your concerns.

So, once again, I welcome comments on how you believe this art should function. For instance, should it be duration based, durability based, or break randomly on damage? What do you believe the base reduction should be, increased by how much per plat? Major or Minor? Cost? What Sphere would it be learned?


That was bad maths on my part, I was attempting to illustrate that with separate stacking it wouldn't actually be 95% absorb and that the high absorb shield was still taking a massive amount of damage.
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