Underlight Discord Chat: http://discord.underlight.com/
Production Server: Online (Version 3.1.15)
Player Test Realm Server: Offline (Version 3.1.15)

Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Want to talk about non-game related issues? This is the forum for it.
Post Reply
Lu Chaos
Dreamer
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:44 am
Character Name(s): Lu Chaos

Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Lu Chaos »

https://youtu.be/u-vH9P25U9Y

In this video it will give you insight on different types of bad GMs.. Do you or would you fit into any categories, and if so how would you fix it?
User avatar
rWilricson
Dreamer
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:49 am
Character Name(s): Will Ricson

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by rWilricson »

touché
The Mistress squeezes Will Ricson, a sharp cut smile forms across her face
The Mistress: sssexy and juicey
Synteny: I can't.
Pheasant
Dreamer
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Pheasant »

DONE
Lu Chaos
Dreamer
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:44 am
Character Name(s): Lu Chaos

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Lu Chaos »

I actually rp a headstrong dick character even I hate him sometimes. But you didnt respond to what you are.
Pheasant
Dreamer
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Pheasant »

Lu Chaos wrote: But you didnt respond to what you are.
Neither did anyone else.
DONE
User avatar
Tember
Dreamers of Light
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:35 pm
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Tember »

Lu Chaos wrote:I actually rp a headstrong dick character even I hate him sometimes. But you didnt respond to what you are.
The real question is.. Why do you have to be such a dick ooc too?
User avatar
Golah
Dreamer
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:15 am

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Golah »

I would make a bad GM, but a good player.

So let me explain why to the first, in every interaction of Underlight, and any game that has online Game masters and Players, there has ALWAYS been a point where its virtually impossible to separate the player from the GM and visa versa, this becomes more of a problem when the player is a core part of the game, and the GM they control is as well. There are also times where players embark on a journey for whatever ill gotten reason they make in their minds to be okay, a path to determine which GM controls which characters, so on so forth, even I have been guilty of this.

I for the most part do not believe that every GM is bad, I believe that they do work hard, and sometimes get caught in the loop of picking a side, and it sucks when it comes down to it, this is part of the reason many GMs quit not just underlight, but roleplay games in general suffer from this fallout.

The reason I would not make a good,m great, or even decent GM is because honestly, you can't player underlight. This means you would be unable to play a player character, and the reasons for this are simple. If you do not have a player character you are less likely to fall into the favoritism argument. The problem with this, GMs deserve to be allowed to PLAY as well. So its a lose-lose battle for everyone.

As a Player I find that I can adapt my toon to encompass many different players, and I work hard to ensure that everyone has fun, for me that means working with toons I would normally not work with, meaning I use my OOC mind to ask myself 3 questions, what is the point of the rp? What will the rp add to the game? Does the toon present a case to warrant my interaction? If so I will adjust how the toon I control is played. Years ago I would not have, as I have aged I have discovered it takes a village to run a great game. That means that we are all GMs to some extent, the level of that is very much dependent on our level of participation, and out ability to offer inclusion.

For the most part I do my own thing, and if people want to interact with me, they seek out my toon, and I will offer clues, hints, and the like to see if there is interest on their part, I have also started giving other peoples roleplays a chance, by taking it from a GM perspective to see if I have unfairly judged them based on actions that for the most part I should not be.

One thing I have noticed is MANY players and GMs have been allowing their feelings to guide how they RP, these feelings are stemming from items said in either discord, or on the forums, and then its taken into game, this is a case of OOC behavior guiding IC behavior, and not something I can support. We are all actors controlling a toon, the ability to distinguish that is important both as a player and as a GM, and we need to be more receptive of the people that play around us, and give others a chance to lead, and have roleplays of their own, not just ours.

Last and most important, is you have to roleplay to lose, and what I mean by that is simple, this is not a game you play to win, its ever changing, and it will get frustrating I get that, but it should never be assumed that what you do will work or be successful for any reason, and if you are thinking that, you are playing the wrong game. Underlight was designed to change, and evolve. Its not about Lu or his controller, its not about Tember or her controller, its not about the GMs, its not about me or golah, its about everyone.

If we really want to see change you roleplay it, 20 years ago teachers training teachers in train, I would of said you were out of your mind, real change takes time, calculations, and intention, nothing is meant to happen over night, I have seen great GMs bad GMs just as easily as I have seen the same from players.

I understand that we may not all like one another both in game or out, I get it, but we have to remember that we are a roleplaying, tool first, and nothing we have is meant to be looked at as ours alone.

We must first be willing to change as players, for the core benefit of a game, in order to see it become more than what it currently is.
User avatar
Koi-Anise
Senior GameMaster
Posts: 372
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:43 am

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Koi-Anise »

I wasn't really going to respond, but I decided to.

I don't consider myself a "great" or "good" GM. I'm somewhere in the middle of the road. My first priority has always been the happiness of the players, and that is a burden that is exhausting because as we all know the golden rule, "You can't please everyone." I have reached out on numerous occasions to players in the hopes of fixing whatever it is that upsets them. Sometimes I can.. sometimes I can't. It's the nature of the beast. I have always been approachable.

We have a good, diverse group of GMs on this team that volunteer their time whenever they are able. We all have kids, busy lives, jobs and spouses that require some of our attention. For the most part we are pleased that the players have undertaken RPing to the point where our interaction needs to be minimal, and that is FANTASTIC.

Yet, week after week we hear how shitty we all are, how the team sucks, how the RPs suck, one-sided, favoritism, GMs playing god-mode, etc. We come up with RPs to engage the players, and two, maybe three get involved. The rest sit up in their house, or in sanctuary, and talk about how the RP sucks.

"Put me on the team, I'll make a better GM than any that's on there now."
"Your team sucks, and your GMs suck."
"This RP is stupid and I hate it, whoever came up with this sucks."

This is just a very miniscule, tidied up version of the insults we hear on a consistent basis. Yet, here we still all are, plodding away knowing that whatever we might be doing.. "sucks". We have a DEV team who is attempting to put together new things, a recent GM team shakeup that switched some things around to help with communication and other things, and an ever-evolving collective mind of brainstormers who have a laundry list of RPs that we want to do.

So no.. YOU, tell US - what makes a good or bad GM?
Senior GameMaster
Anise(a)underlight.com

- A wise man once said, "Wherever you go, there you are."
User avatar
Golah
Dreamer
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:15 am

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Golah »

This, here makes a good GM, as I stated we as players need to change, this is not the same game anymore which means we have to be better people, we have to value players which means on an ooc level we have to be accountable for the behaviors we display, and on the same hand, work to change that, so that we can accommodate other players.

Koi-Anise wrote:I wasn't really going to respond, but I decided to.

I don't consider myself a "great" or "good" GM. I'm somewhere in the middle of the road. My first priority has always been the happiness of the players, and that is a burden that is exhausting because as we all know the golden rule, "You can't please everyone." I have reached out on numerous occasions to players in the hopes of fixing whatever it is that upsets them. Sometimes I can.. sometimes I can't. It's the nature of the beast. I have always been approachable.

We have a good, diverse group of GMs on this team that volunteer their time whenever they are able. We all have kids, busy lives, jobs and spouses that require some of our attention. For the most part we are pleased that the players have undertaken RPing to the point where our interaction needs to be minimal, and that is FANTASTIC.

Yet, week after week we hear how shitty we all are, how the team sucks, how the RPs suck, one-sided, favoritism, GMs playing god-mode, etc. We come up with RPs to engage the players, and two, maybe three get involved. The rest sit up in their house, or in sanctuary, and talk about how the RP sucks.

"Put me on the team, I'll make a better GM than any that's on there now."
"Your team sucks, and your GMs suck."
"This RP is stupid and I hate it, whoever came up with this sucks."

This is just a very miniscule, tidied up version of the insults we hear on a consistent basis. Yet, here we still all are, plodding away knowing that whatever we might be doing.. "sucks". We have a DEV team who is attempting to put together new things, a recent GM team shakeup that switched some things around to help with communication and other things, and an ever-evolving collective mind of brainstormers who have a laundry list of RPs that we want to do.

So no.. YOU, tell US - what makes a good or bad GM?
Lu Chaos
Dreamer
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:44 am
Character Name(s): Lu Chaos

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Lu Chaos »

Anise, for your mature response to this post youve gained a bit of my respect. It seems that you still have xhildren you need to weed out from your team but none the less. I aporeciate your sincerity. I simply asked a question and they responded to me with IC and OOC insults. Which doesnt bother me too much. On the other hand you appear to be the reaponsible GM and admit or accept your flaws and that will ake you a better GM than you aIready were I promise. Thx Anise
User avatar
Golah
Dreamer
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:15 am

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Golah »

Is not the point of the video(s) to learn, and respond in kind? This Koi surely did and Lus controller points that out, this is a chance for us to evaluate ourselves as players and GMs to take a long hard look and see what we as a community can do, to better ourselves and the game. We need to seize this chance, rather than demonize a player or players or Gms and really try harder.
Lu Chaos wrote:Anise, for your mature response to this post youve gained a bit of my respect. It seems that you still have xhildren you need to weed out from your team but none the less. I aporeciate your sincerity. I simply asked a question and they responded to me with IC and OOC insults. Which doesnt bother me too much. On the other hand you appear to be the reaponsible GM and admit or accept your flaws and that will ake you a better GM than you aIready were I promise. Thx Anise
User avatar
Arnaya
Dreamer
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:25 am
Character Name(s): Arnaya

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Arnaya »

Very nice sentiments, Golah, and thank you for your response Anise.

As one of the people who has been critical of the GM's in past (Usually in a fit of pique, I'll admit. Like many other players, but that doesn't make it right). I would say there are a couple of things that make the difference between a "Good" and a "Bad" GM. To answer the question first posed, I wouldn't make a good GM. I get frustrated too easily and expect people to behave with some level of decorum towards each other even if their characters are at odds.

Qualities that divide "Good" and "Bad" GMs:
1) A good GM will try to engage the players that are involved in an RP, even if only on a peripheral level... while a bad GM would force their vision of the RP... basically making the players nothing more than spectators.
2) A good GM will communicate with the players in regards to RP's. IE: Okay, your trying to make/change this [Insert whatever here]. There's a few balance issues with this, or this is just going to be a nightmare to code and we'd have to basically re-write the game to do it. But, how about something like this?. A bad GM will just go: "No, f-you. I don't like that and its not going to happen regardless". A roleplaying game is a partnership between the players and the GM's, where both sides are involved in creating interesting stories. That means both parties have to be engaged in making it work, talking to each other and communicating (At least nominally).
3) A good GM will remember what it was like when they were a player and things happened. They'll try to keep the players perception's in mind, because the players don't see all of the GM's notes on this character or that character or this storyline or that map. All the players can see is what's presented to their characters, for the most part. A bad GM would just scream and rail at the players for being stupid.

Overall, my experiences with the GM team of underlight have been pretty good (The communication issue has been my biggest pet peeve, where nearly all of my frustration with the GM's has come from. I'm very pleased to note that I've seen huge improvements on that front, so... Kudo's and thank you for that. I at least have noticed it and greatly appreciate the effort :) ). Some of the storylines have been kinda weak, but a lot of that is simply things being revealed to some characters that don't get passed on to anyone else (or get passed along in such a twisted manner that it makes no sense).... so key pieces of the puzzle are missing and things just don't make sense... but storylines don't have to be great to start with.... they're made great by the people that get involved with them and help them grow. We arn't all Stephen King, or Terry Brooks, or Tolkien, or George Martin, or or or. So building the story's together, lets us build on each others strengths... each contributing something new to the growing narrative. Ultimately... a Good GM will encourage that (and help get other contributors involved, not just one or two who overrun everyone else), while a Bad one will block or shut it down.

some random thoughts on it from a random type of girl,
~ Jan
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
Lu Chaos
Dreamer
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:44 am
Character Name(s): Lu Chaos

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Lu Chaos »

Thank you Arnaya your post was enlightening as hell. I believe we could all learn from this.
Koi-Echelon

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Koi-Echelon »

I am not a good GM.

I am not a bad GM.

I am just... a GM.

Good or bad is a subjective form of measure. Believe it or not but I spend a lot of my time in game doing things behind the scenes, about 90% of what I do you aren't even aware it's me. There are times when people will love me, hate me, or just not care. This is the nature of GMing.

It is impossible to indulge every person or to give everyone what they want. If there were no challenge involved in accomplishments they wouldn't be accomplishments. It is human nature to perceive other's accomplishments as undeserved. Or to believe you deserve a certain accolade more. There will always be the perception that one group or another gets favorable treatment over another.

Each group at one time or another has accused me of favoring someone over them, each and every one of them. Each of my characters acts/behaves true to whatever it is their duty is, or what their goals may be. For certain characters, this evolves based on whatever twists and turns a Roleplay may take. For my teaching characters, they will always remain true to the teaching rules they must follow.

At times I have to enforce rules, which will make me hated because he likes being the subject of punitive action? At those times I have to be just as unbiased and fair as any other time. I do not punish to be vindictive, I do not seek to be any more or less harsh on anyone. At times some things are necessary, no matter how it makes people feel about me.

Regardless of what people think I treat everyone equally. My GMMT characters have written quests for characters that you might claim I have a vendetta against. I task those who claim the GM team attempts to stunt and stifle them. Their quests are no different than ones I write for people who claim I may prefer. Then again, the perceived notion that certain people receive preferential treatment is just that: a perception.

We create Roleplayers and introduce them to players. We receive both kinds of reactions to them, good or bad. Some choose not to interact with them at all and do nothing but pick them apart. Instead, those people could interact with it and cause it to become better through their involvement. We develop frameworks for players to take up and mold. If we just ran, directed and created the conclusion to each and every RP we create... that would make you nothing more than an audience. Watching instead of interacting, what's the fun in that?

There are times to bend, and there are times when you cannot else it breaks a certain aspect of what you are doing. The trick is knowing the difference and when to apply it.

But by all means, continue to send in your complaints and hound people with your incessant cries of foul. But, you cannot complain about what the GM's do and then in the same breath complain that they don't do enough. A GM is cursed with seeing the entirety of the picture which makes up our community. Others only see their piece, thinking it smaller or not as great as others. What is usually missed is every piece is required to make the whole. Do not become angry when something does not go your way and seek channels to vent your anger against those whom you believe slighted you. Trust in the fact that there are checks and balances in place to stop a GM from abusing power, just as there is in place for players.
User avatar
Koi-Wish
Founder
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:51 pm

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Koi-Wish »

Am I a good gm or a bad gm - I like to think, and I believe, I am a good GM.

I tend to partake in the small RPs you see, especially spontaneous in the moment ones. I like being dynamic with them. I tend to step on toes too much when it comes to the bigger storylines so I typically sit out of them, or play a small support role. I know a lot of players do this now and then too, they would prefer to stand on the side lines and watch. Enjoy or dislike, they are spectators purely.

That being said, we all prefer less spectators and more participators - this is where I tend to shine when it comes to the smaller items. Players have had moments of just themselves or small group that I tend to RP within and make them feel just as important as the bigger storylines that are going on around them. I like the small smiles and enjoyment opportunities that I can fuel by some minor participation in some thing spontaneous and localized. That's not to say I don't have big ideas of my own churning, as a number of players are a part of a storyline or two from my brain pan that have spanned nearly two decades. Sometimes they are hot and sometimes they are cold.... I will fail and succeed just as well do now and then.

This is the curse of being a GM. We talk amongst ourselves every single day, reacting to RPs, discussing ideas, moving with them, shooting ones down, moving forward, pushing, pulling... watching, listening and trying. The collective of the Koi-Team try. We fail. We succeed. But always we try. This has been said a thousand times, but it always needs repeated because I think people hear it but they don't listen sometimes. Absolutely none of us would be here, if we didn't love this game. Players and GMs alike. We aren't paid, we have no obligation what-so-ever to continue. We do, not because we like the power, we like to make people mad, or even because we like to make them happy. We do what we do, because we love the spirit of UnderLight. This game has so much rich meaning to all of us at different levels. None of us wants to see it fail, that would not make for a fun environment playing all alone. Success if measured in participation and community involvement... the more you enjoy what we do, the more we enjoy what we do.

It seems the City goes thru moments of love and hate for us... its a pattern that has happened since the beginning of the game. We roll with it. We didn't fail during times of lows, it just means it didn't really stick, we didn't knock one out of the park. And sometimes fails are only fails to those who didn't like it, but to others the RP was awesome. We will also have success... we will nail one that everyone is like, wow, that was an amazing story. Its just like IRL. There are ups and downs, times you are pleased with your decisions in your life, times when things are boring and your just going thru the paces, and times when things just suck. UnderLight portrays life in a micro world within the City.

Bad gm, good gm... bad player... good player. Bad life... wonderful life..

I just ask that you hang with us, and dream, its your dream. Its our dream. We all want it to succeed.... the best way, is to play your part... and dream with us.

Brian
User avatar
Arnaya
Dreamer
Posts: 831
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:25 am
Character Name(s): Arnaya

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Arnaya »

Well spoken Echelon and Wishy... There's some perspective in there for us all to keep in mind. For my part at least, I will strive to try and look at the larger picture (as much as I can). I think most of us can appreciate that all of the GM's try, and we can appreciate the effort put in.
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
User avatar
-Lacie-
Ascended Dreamers
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:23 pm
Character Name(s): Purple Lace, etal
Location: Huntsville, AL
Contact:

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by -Lacie- »

"Are you, or would you, be a bad GM?" Boy, I've wrestled with that question for eons.

I watched a few of those videos from that bearded, British-speaking dude (sorry, don't know his name), and he has some really good advice and very interesting views and suggestions on how to make RPG's better and how to resolve player/GM problems.

And I'm guilty of a few things he mentioned. I will be the first to admit it. The videos taught me that even at MY age, I have things to learn and I'm taking that to heart. Here's why....

Look at the bottom of the main page.... "438 registered members". I look at that number every day. I look at how many "guests" come to the forums and at what time(s) of day. I realize that includes the current player base, and that there's some duplicates. I am giving the arbitrary number of "300" that are registered and not playing (forgive my math).

So there's ~300 registered users who don't play. Then there's the ~X number of visitors watching. Then I ask myself, "How can *I* help the UL game situations, conflicts, problems & arguments be replaced with constructive criticisms, new ideas and resolutions, so that those idle players and curious guests flood into the City?"

I've seen things work. I've seen things shoo people away. I try VERY hard to not let things get to me personally and try to bring ideas to the City that those 300 + X people would love to see if they walked in from the Courtyard, or only had time to sneak a peak on the forums to read.

I was offered a GM spot a long time ago. I turned it down for the simple reason (I didn't understand nearly what I do now, mind you) that I would only become a GM if Lacie could turn into a GM. Oh the joys of being young...

If I were a GM, I'd be like Ightyn Wy'kim.... only 3X more.... she's a great GM because she's got a rp behind her character. Varden is another good example.... excellent workup for a GM character.

But then I realize Lacie *is* a GM in a manner of speaking and then I try to conduct myself in a fair way like a GM does. Of course, Lacie is completely crazy.... isn't that like a requirement for being a GM???? :D

To the GM's.... you guys do a great job! Period. But please understand that just because some of us aren't GM's, doesn't mean we don't want this City to thrive EVERY bit as much as you do and we honestly, truly want to help. We can help....

Arnaya said it very well...
For my part at least, I will strive to try and look at the larger picture (as much as I can).
Count me on board with that statement as well.

~Lacie~
~Lacie~
Keeper of the Eternal Shadow
Screchethan Kabal
"Cuz Clever got me this far, then Tricky got me in."
Lu Chaos
Dreamer
Posts: 275
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:44 am
Character Name(s): Lu Chaos

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Lu Chaos »

Much appreciated for the contributions to the topic at hand.

This wasn't mean to be a flame post, this was simply an enlightenment post. Of course some turned it into what it never was mean't to be but that is where the subject of matter returns.. What are you? How can you make it better?
Sidas
Developer
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:11 pm
Character Name(s): Dreiko

Re: Are you or would you be a bad GM?

Post by Sidas »

Lu Chaos wrote:Much appreciated for the contributions to the topic at hand.

This wasn't mean to be a flame post, this was simply an enlightenment post. Of course some turned it into what it never was mean't to be but that is where the subject of matter returns.. What are you? How can you make it better?
Generally posts like this that are meant for introspection are led off with it by the OP. Otherwise it just looks like they're being a dick and trying to troll.

I didn't watch the video but I'd be whatever GM type that covers someone pushing everyone else to do their job/fill their role. :P So probably not a "good one" from a player perspective.
Post Reply