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State of the game

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Gerroz
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State of the game

Post by Gerroz »

Hello everyone

I am writing this so that we all can take a honest look at the state of Underlight.

When the game relaunched, we had lots of activity and good roleplays the first couple months. And I must say it was some of the most fun times I have had in the game over its whole lifespan, as a matter of fact. Lately though, it has declined severely, and I think we need to take a hard honest look at where it is now, and what we can do to save the game from dying a third time.

We all know that many players and GMs alike have quit, and others (myself included) have started to play less than we used to. I am starting this thread so that we can have a fruitful discussion on the two main points that I feel we need to address to further the game at this point:

1) How to keep the players we do have, and how to ensure that activity among them rises again

2) How to attract new players


I urge all players to take part in this discussion, for we all love this game and want to see it flourish
Dina

Re: State of the game

Post by Dina »

Ok first of all, the thing that irritates me are these elitist groups.

The Forge group for one. I feel it is at the point that if you are not liked by THEM. You will not get anywhere. Get rid of Dreamsmiths all together and allow teachers to just teach it. The population is definitely too low. This had really good RP potential, but it was ruined by a few players. It wouldn't be so bad if people did not look at politics and personal vendettas, but they do. This same thing happens with teaching too. When someone has an interview, not all the smiths are even told heh. It's just a select few that think they are the ones that only matter when it comes to the mark. Hate me all you want, but it is the truth.

This Master Teacher stuff? Please, there are some great teachers out there that should have it and some that should "not". I believe that should go by train level, not a popularity contest, which it is now. This is upsetting players and not just me. Some have left the game over both of my points.

The fairness is gone basically. Some people get it all where some people always struggle and always end up with nothing. That turns people away.
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Jiovanni
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Re: State of the game

Post by Jiovanni »

Once again, I'll start by saying that the following is my personal opinion as a player and have nothing to do with policies set forth by any other entity.

If we should take an honest look at the game, it would have to be a complete look in totality that would include all periods of activity. At launch, it was anticipated that there would be an initial surge of players as we would come back to experience Underlight again. A lot of dynamic and engaging roleplays occurred during this period. I would think it's unfair to say that the game is "dying". We honestly have a bigger playerbase than Shades of Truth did for most of its duration. Perhaps, you are not seeing this within your playing time but I can assure there is plenty of activity on the part of the players and the GameMasters. Moreover, there are actual new players involved and becoming part of the game's community.

As I said before, we anticipated the decline of playerbase once the nostalgia wore off for returning players. Yes, the GM Team has had a rounds of turnover but that's always been an issue with any voluntary position. The GMs have been hard at work with creating new storylines, ideas, and player-driven support. Remember, it's a handful of people - not a fully paid team.

The project could use improvement in attracting new players and its certainly being looked into but keep in mind that progress comes from within. The GMs are trying to make many innovative changes throughout the board. Its a work in progress. Unlike Lyra with 9 years of development and Shades of Truth with 6 years of development, Clash of Dreams is still in the infancy of their project - they turn 1 this week.

Someone mentioned elitism in the game with certain groups. That in itself is a dual edged sword. If the GMs take assertion of certain projects, much like the houses, players accuse them of favoritism. If players take assertion of the same projects, players accuse other players of elitism. People want other people to do all the work for them. In the beginning, the GMs allowed for multiple presentations. The GMs want to keep as much of the game in the hands of the players as possible.

In the real world, not everyone is going to have all the same accolades and accomplishments as the others. Underlight is an emulation of the real world in a fantasy setting. It's no surprise that these type of posts appear - but the real action should be happening in the game. I have seen players turn things around for themselves and becoming powerhouses.

More or less, it's a community effort to keep this project moving forward. The project does not necessary revolve around one individual. It's a team effort and the players are the most important members of the team. Let's work together and work it out.
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coltdorsey
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Re: State of the game

Post by coltdorsey »

With having our initial characters back, I think its very easy to fall in to old routines and those can get boring quick. I know I certainly did and it got to where I wasn't enjoying playing as much. For me, I made some changes to my character without compromising any core beliefs or consistencies.

Perhaps there are some issues that need be escalated to the GM Team but to be honest, I personally haven't encountered anything yet that I couldn't fix by adjusting something with my own character.

In terms of elitism, I don't see that. At Lyra end game, my character was still a punk ass qrp'ing fighter. In the short time Clash of Dreams has been live, I've been able to achieve, as Jiovanni puts it, certain accolades. If elitism were true in this instance, I certainly don't feel my character would have been able to attain some of these positions. I didn't have them before because I played my character as a punk ass qrp'ing fighter. If you feel you are running a losing race in trying to achieve some of the stations like Master Teacher, Wordsmith, or Dreamsmith I would encourage you to do some self reflection in how you're playing your character.

I think there is a fundamental lack of unity in characters for roleplays to improve the dream or destroy it (aside from darkmares?) I felt the initial group occupying the Order captured some of those elements in the beginning, but the shift in membership looks to have diminished what was there.
Dina

Re: State of the game

Post by Dina »

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it is not happening. I'm talking about a few cases I have seen that didn't even deal with me. So basically an evil person or someone not well liked should change who their character is so they can be gifted with everything? The one thing that two of my toons will not do...is "smoke pole". Keeping it somewhat rated pg here.... Someone should not have to change their toon to get favors in the game. It takes players and people are scattering for some of the same reasons I brought up.
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coltdorsey
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Re: State of the game

Post by coltdorsey »

Dina wrote:Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it is not happening.
If you disregard my entire example, I suppose you'd still see there is nothing which contrasts your opinion of alleged elitism.
Dina wrote:So basically an evil person or someone not well liked should change who their character is so they can be gifted with everything?
Again my example highlights that these changes can be done without compromising the consistencies of a character. The character Kaer GeRRoZ is another prime example.
Sidas
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Re: State of the game

Post by Sidas »

I think Dina does have a point in regards to the Forge stuff. Gerroz is more of an exception since the GMs took control of choosing the initial group because of players trying to pull crap. But the big issue with the Forge Mark is that they keep changing the rules as they're going along so there's no actual standard of obtaining it.

MT is pointless for the most part since a chunk of the people that have it don't actually use it and just like the extra shiny on their head. But that, like Forge, is on the players.
Dina

Re: State of the game

Post by Dina »

Exactly Sidas. The forge crap keeps changing to bend to their likes and wants. It would be easy to blame the gm's for not keeping an eye on this, but it's not their fault. It is the greediness and elitism of players trying to keep others back because they don't like them.

Dina should not be stuck having to go to a house she is not liked to get a support for MT. This is not Lyra and people say Dina is a good teacher. A house that hates her will keep her from doing things. Politics should not play in the part of how someone teaches.

This is ruining the game. I hardly even play my teacher now.
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Clarity
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Re: State of the game

Post by Clarity »

Okay. My turn :)

The game itself is actually fairly active. Our GM team, on the whole, is doing a very good job, though there are bits and pieces that I feel could be improved upon. But, those are my personal feelings and I'm sure if they felt they needed to hear them, they know how to contact me, and in turn If I really felt they needed communicating, I know how to contact them. So on that front, we're good.

As for recruiting new players, I and a few other folks over the course of the last few months have been trying to promote the game when ever possible - Up to and including creating a Tumblr account to post fun screenshots, rp snipits, and out-of-context jokes. Unfortunately despite promoting it in IRC and in the FB group, no one's stepped up to give me anything to post. I loath to post stuff of my own, mostly because it skews the way the game is portrayed towards my character, and their house. So, in that, again, I say get out and promote, and send me some things to post. Obviously I don't want spoilery stuff, but funny 2-3 line log's, screenshots, video of big events (We found you can record with the live stream tool), self written stories about your characters, art... all sorts of things!

With the state of the game, currently, outside of of numbers, or gm involvement, I do, in fact have an issue. It's not at all a new issue. Anyone who's sat in IRC with me long enough can tell you this. My issue has 100% to do with players and how they interact with each other. Our community is small. Yet time and time again, old hurts, fresh ones, and sniping at each other continues to be an issue.

An issue that was expected when the player base was made up of teenagers. We are no longer teenagers, well, MOST of us aren't. We do have a few. As such I would press upon folks, one more time, to act as Adults. Be kind to your fellow players, even if your characters in game do not see eye to eye. No one says you can't be angry in the heat of the moment. But take into consideration that there are PEOPLE on the other side of the things you say and do in public spaces.

If you're finding you can't interact with the PLAYERS, remove yourself from IRC until you can return to a calm state where you can. We all love Underlight. We don't have to always agree, but the snarky/bitter/hateful back and forth is beneath all of us. We want to bring people in to play with us, not drive them away because of toxic behavior to one another. If you wouldn't want something said, or done, to you. Perhaps try not doing it to others. At the end of the day, Underlight is a game. Some characters need to be bad guys, but that doesn't make their players bad people.

Lastly, to touch upon what Colt said: If you're finding the reactions to the way your character interacts with people is less then you'd like, try re-evaluating how your character interacts with folks. Bad guys are going to be treated less-then-stelar in game, because they're bad guys. Characters disagree. Conflict is a good thing, but you have to remember that characters aren't going to want to do things for your character if they've been shitty to bunches of folks. Take a look at your characters interactions OOCly, and try something different. You don't have to change your character in a way that wouldn't make sense for them, but you should be aware what may be causing roadblocks for your characters development and advancement, and if you're finding that to be the case, then find a different angle to tackle the problem.

Getting angry about how Characters interact with Characters, is not the solution.
So it’s gonna be forever, and I will stay up through the night. You can tell me when it’s over, and let’s be clear, won’t close my eyes. @-;-
Dina

Re: State of the game

Post by Dina »

My point is this...Dina trying to kill someone does not affect how she teaches. I'm done explaining myself here. I'm sure if the GMs feel I have a point in what I'm saying...they will contact me or do something about it. However, I won't be expecting anything.....
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Shae
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Re: State of the game

Post by Shae »

As someone who never played in Lyra, I can say that I am having issues feeling the warm fuzzies. Apparently the Lyra version was much more political/ war oriented. I miss the feeling of everyone sitting around, trying to figure out how to blow up the city, or how to create new portals, taverns, etc.

Yes, I've missed a few months, but prior to my absence, and since that time, I see a lot of stagnation, because everyone is looking out for another house, who could be sneaking up to attack at any time. Maybe it's just been poor timing on my part, and I'm fully to blame for that, but it feels a bit boring to me. I still may need some more adjustment time. It's all just been politics to me, so far.

I'm not going to leave, though! I don't think dream is dying out, either. At first, I think many dreamers pulled in all their characters to see who would be a better fit, and have since put their 'extra' characters away for the time being, focusing on just one or two that fit the storyline better.

I still find the dreamers enjoyable, and the diversity is always fun to watch, but really, we're still at around the year-point... everyone is still getting their feet wet and trying to figure each other out. At least, this is my perspective on it.

I miss all the raw emotes, or ambient sounds, and that feel like someone 'larger than you' was watching over your shoulder and taking notice of your RP, giving a sound effect or two to assist. If I were a GM, I'd like to get back to doing that. I think it makes the population more productive, just knowing that someone is spending time checking on the quality of the RPs, and enjoys watching the reactions to something thrown in that a peer couldn't provide.

No bad vibes here.. I'm enjoying myself, and happy that I have been able to return. :)
Where are all the GateKeepers?!
KirtesOmathear
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Re: State of the game

Post by KirtesOmathear »

I feel that there are a lot of players that are looking at the game and working towards making it better. I applaud their effort and enjoy what they are doing.

I think more players should realize that right now its not what the game can do for you but what you can do for the game. Whenever you start putting yourself into the situations to excel, you will excel. Thus the fun of the game comes with it.

If you keep putting yourself in places where you show yourself up, it turns those around you away from acknowledging you in a positive light.

Game isn't full of NPCs, its a community of people that act and react to the way you carry your character.

I never really role played my characters in the method of "deserving" things. Heck, my characters have always been left behind in the grand scope of teaching/spheres.. etc etc. Though, I always enjoy the game and what comes next.

Anyone that knows my characters, they are always stuck in some kind of controversy. An whether intentionally or unintentionally they are always open to harm mentally and physically. (Not like walking dead dropping body parts *coughs venom coughs*) but in the sense that certain situations hinder or propel his actions.... Which I enjoy controlling my characters in this method, because I think to much of the real world mentality of "its k brah, idk bout that" has kind of leaked over to many minds in comparison to how characters should be.. as in "Ok this is a world that im thrusted.. I dont know why I'm here.. I have beliefs that I believe in.. Could I die.. maybe maybe not.. This person harms my ideals in this way.. this faction does this to me...". I just feel that present society has basically taken away the imaginative minds that use to reside deeply within the roots of Underlight.

Where are the Sala Erosa.. The Asmodan, The Rebel, (we do have a Lu Chaos ;).. aside from the womanizing you do bring it on a level that I applaud!!!!!!). The crazies and the evolving characters just haven't existed.
Lu Chaos
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Re: State of the game

Post by Lu Chaos »

Bah.. I've been tryin' to do the best I can at helping with the game.. Only so much I can do. I don't think it's a popularity contest because hell, Lu Chaos is popular as hell and the GMs barely do shit for him lol besides give me a task or somethin'. It's up to the players to make their way through the city and effect the other players..



The game is back to Politic this and politic that. The game doesn't have a common enemy besides the KoES mares and that sucks.. So while the GMs aren't available for the majority of the day.. Or whatever, we have to fight each other to stay entertained.. I know a solution and I talked to Wish about it.. It's up to him and his team now.. Simple and plain.
Noidea
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Re: State of the game

Post by Noidea »

Jiovanni's right, the game is actually far busier now than it was in SoT days. At least, it is during the hours I play (British evening/American morning). In SoT, I knew I'd be extremely lucky to see another player in game at that time on a weekday, and not always even at the weekend; now, there's nearly always somebody. And that's great.

I think it is true, though, that it's down a bit from what it was. It's possible that that's as simple as the novelty wearing off. But yes, we do need to make sure it isn't anything more sinister.

I can't comment on the "state of the game" very much as my character's still a freespirit, so what with that and playing odd hours I'm a bit left out of the conversation. When she finally manages to join AoE (it's all fixed up but I can't seem to get hold of a Guardian to initiate her) and I'm a bit more in on things, I'll say what I think!

Don't know what your plan is, Lu Chaos, but if it's a good one I hope it gets done!
Efforts yield rewards, not words alone.
Ghazgkull
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Re: State of the game

Post by Ghazgkull »

I think Underlight could actually gain a fair bit of traction online as a completely free to play, true roleplaying game. It just needs two things to get off the ground:
  1. Windows 8 support
  2. Marketing (in roleplaying communities)


- Jared
Noidea
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Re: State of the game

Post by Noidea »

One thing I do notice, regarding recruiting new players, is the website homepage. It consists almost entirely of "news items" and they're nearly all months out of date. It seems to me this must be important - the website homepage will be the first thing most prospective players will see of Underlight, for instance if they find it through a Web search or via a link somebody has posted somewhere. At present, if I were a newcomer there's a very good chance I'd look at that page and think "I can't work out what this is about", or "This game must be dead, all these news sections end months ago", and move on to another site.

The worst, IMO, is the "Top News" box at the bottom of the page, which is still a message from February saying that the game is entering closed beta testing. I think this should either go or at least be given an up-to-date notice.

Even if the news postings were up to date, I think it would be hard for a stranger to work out from them what the game was actually about (story-wise). I mean, look at it. "FreeSouls, the number of dreams afforded to you has become numbered." "Every battle you wage upon us and the Idoaclesians only serves to weaken us as a whole against the Hota threat." We all know what FreeSouls, Idoaclesians and Hota are, and what dreams have to do with it, but imagine you didn't for a moment. The homepage doesn't even say why we keep talking about "dreams". Do you think it would be better to replace one of the news sections with a little blurb introducing the premise of the story? It is, after all, a very cool premise.

What does everyone else think?


P.S.: GMs - I know I've e-mailed you before about this; just wanted to say, I'm not trying to go over your heads or anything, just thought that since we're on the subject of recruiting it would be good to discuss this and see what other players actually think.
Efforts yield rewards, not words alone.
Noidea
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Re: State of the game

Post by Noidea »

Um, yes. About those flyers? Can the Kois tell us where that's up to? I did, eventually, send one in, so there's definitely been at least one entry so far! Are you waiting for more entries before choosing one to use?
Efforts yield rewards, not words alone.
Noidea
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Re: State of the game

Post by Noidea »

Heads-up about the flyers: Koi-Raven PMed me pointing out that the flyer contest had given Koi-Legend's e-mail address, which of course is now no longer active - so that's probably what happened to mine. If anyone else here has sent in a flyer, you might want to resend it to Raven.

On a different subject - I notice that "Top News" box has disappeared from the homepage, well caught. Also, awesome "Rise of the Datoken" picture/posting is awesome!
Efforts yield rewards, not words alone.
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Koi-Drama
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Re: State of the game

Post by Koi-Drama »

The voice of the community means a great deal to us. It helps us to bring a better gaming environment to the players. Please remember to utilize our official Contact Post if you wish to contribute to the project or would like submit an idea, request, question, concern, et cetera, to us. Your voice is absolutely important to us. Without you, the players, we would not have a game.

Also, I'd like to take a moment to remind the community that our in-game report functions are fully operational and you may utilize them to communicate with the Koi-Team. We appreciate all the ideas, submissions, and discussions from the community. Keep them coming!

Koi-Team
“I try to bring the audience's own drama, tears and laughter they know about, to them.”
HiRoGIiFiQ
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Re: State of the game

Post by HiRoGIiFiQ »

My interaction with Dina reminded me why this game is better in memory... I just cant with that mess
Dina

Re: State of the game

Post by Dina »

So I'm being blamed for the state of the game? You need to realize that your character was also much to blame for that "mess". Some of you love to point fingers at others but never take responsibility for your own actions. Dina is a character and you act like one toon is ruining the game.

Dina has many friends and just because you don't get a long with her...doesn't mean you pull out the playpen OOC.
Last edited by Koi-Drama on Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Inappropriate Language
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Amante
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Re: State of the game

Post by Amante »

Gotta agree with Dina here. There are many characters that I just 'cant deal with' but in all honesty, that's my issue, and if it's like that.. I can choose to walk away. Our characters make this game. That's the downside of having a fully immersive multiplayer role-playing game. The downside - OUR CHARACTERS make this game. How we choose to act, react and play our characters. The fact that many cannot FULLY detach... Years of emotion, hours, work and effort, and ongoing work and effort and hours... Our characters may be JUST characters, but most everyone can't deny we put a lot into making them what they are now. Many of us, if not all, cannot simply detach completely.. We need to be aware of that and remind ourselves often that this is just a game we choose to put that time into. That the time we do put into it, make the story line that other people play with their characters.

If you don't like someone, or a situation your character is in, -walk away-. Don't sit there and insult, bitch, complain (Unless it's obvious abuse or breaking the rules of the game that we all know well enough, in which case send a report).. Don't get all up in IRC complaining about it. Think about it, and have your character REACT. Everything about Underlight is Action and Reaction, people seem to forget that, and expect results from nothing, or act, and expect the results They want.

The upside of the fact that our characters make this game is that OUR characters have been making this game for over FIFTEEN years!!!! Holy crap guys, what a dedicated bunch of internet addicts :lol:

There was going to be a group making Chakram keyrings for gaming conventions, where did that go, can we still do it? Armageddon in NZ is coming up in March and we'd love to advertise!!! Flyers as well! It doesn't matter WHO we get at the moment, lets just get people in! The good ones, will stay.
I get a temporary case of tourettes because all I can say are four letter words in a four octave-range screaming your name.
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Loathed
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Re: State of the game

Post by Loathed »

'It's just role playing' requires something crucial to actually be sustained as a justification and explanation, role playing. Throwing it out there as a smoke screen to justify certain behaviour, or all of them, doesn't change the fact that it is still nothing more than subterfuge. Role playing is not ipso facto to logging in. The continued attempts to pretend otherwise and step away from general levels of accountability by using 'role playing' as an excuse only exacerbates the toxic environment.

There have always been very different cells within the game that enjoy exploring and creating content at different depths. However, at this late stage of the products evolution the community both in and out of game has been so drained off that these cells no longer have the benefit of a game world large enough for them to function in without being thrust together.

Let's stop pretending that there are not a significant amount of people in this community who are not only entertained by using their 'characters' to harm, hinder, or outright harass others, but they themselves are all too keen to experience the schadenfreude that comes with breaching the pseudo-protective walls of the in game environment to negatively effect and impact the lives of those playing 'the game'. More often than not these same players deny such ever occurs or otherwise hide behind the justifications mentioned at this posts beginning. Have we all likely done this to some degree? Absolutely. Are there those in this community who take such to unhealthy, sociopathic levels? More than anyone is willing to actually admit. And while I am sure some of these behaviours could be linked to the nature of the internet itself, the sad fact of the matter is some people are just honest to goodness rectal orifices. Have always been, will continue to be, and cannot be written off as anything but.
Last edited by Koi-Drama on Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Koi-Drama
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Re: State of the game

Post by Koi-Drama »

Another thread locked.

This thread has gone beyond the scope of its original intended purpose and turned into something it should not be - an arena for personal assaults. We, as adults, should be able to discuss any range of topics without resorting to name calling or negatively suggestive gestures/commands.
“I try to bring the audience's own drama, tears and laughter they know about, to them.”
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