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Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

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Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

Post by Koi-Shadow » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:52 am

The post has been provided for players to complain about the changes to forge. Please post your complaints below. Before you do though, please allow me to explain some of the reasoning for the changes.

There were three "nerfs" done to forge and 2 "buffs". The realize that we sprung these changes without much warning, but we wanted to avoid everyone filling up every room of their house/inventory with the old forged items before the patch. Let's talk about these changes:

Items can no longer be forged with higher charges than they could be genned with: 50 charges for Chakrams, 25 charges for alterors, and 25 charges for elemens.
For years, Lyra had restricted forge so that nobody could learn it higher than 19. Later, they increased this limit to 29. Another year or two later, they increased this to 39. It wasn't towards the end of the game when they knew that it was shutting down did they allow players to increase forge higher than this. This was done to prevent players from having an unlimited amount of items and the gens/nightmare drops being obsolete. Players now have 90+ forge and were capable of forging an unlimited supply of 90+ charged 1-2 hour alterors, 12-40 damage chakrams, and 92 charged 12-40 dreamsoul elemens. All of these are better than anything that could found naturally in the game. This creates a huge imbalance between the players with access to higher forge and those who do not.

This also negatively effected soulmasters, making restore not as useful since players had 500-1000 charges of dreamsoul elemens they could rely on.

Items can no longer be forged better than what can be genned. This allows all players to be able to contribute to a house's item supply instead of only the highest level forger in the house. A new 2nd sphere could have literally found the best alteror in the game from a gen, gave it to their teacher as thanks, and the teacher would have thrown it away because they could have forged better anyway.

Higher forged items will cost more power token charges
Each house has over 150,000+ energy in their primes, I believe one is approaching 500,000. This will have very little effect.

Duration of forgeable alterors has been reduced to be more in line with other item types and what is possible to be genned.
Forge at 64+ could create alterors with the same duration as the best that could be genned with 3+ times the number of charges. This negatively affects Fatesenders and Soulmasters the most, but also Gatekeepers. The "breakthrough" we added to Fatesender arts was having very little effect when players had 64+ charges of 20-40 protection effects that they could forge at will. Abjure and curse breakthrough of protection is also of little use when players are never going to run out of alterors to keep reapplying their effects as well.

Now for the buffs:

A forger can create an item up to half of their forge level for free (increased from 1/4th of their level previously)

This change allows players to create items to help newly awakened or much better items they can use to hunt with.

Added option to forge to allow Dreamseers with Combine can create items with double charges at double the cost
Dreamseers could always combine forged items if they had no descriptions, but this allows them to easily combine them and be able to add description to avoid the forger's guilds wraith. The reduced charges also allows this to be much more useful.

We have spent several of the last patches improving the other focuses, such as the breakthrough changes to Fatesenders and the poison and curse improvements. Combine was probably one of the worst 6th sphere arts before, it should be much more useful now. The recharge bug fix will also help Dreamseers recharge these lower charged items.

We fully realized that these forge changes would be unpopular with some people. Combined with the pmare changes, this first week or so is probably going to be rough and take some adjustments to tactics and your approach to pmares. There will probably be a large number of people trying out the pmares at first and many of you are trying to fight them 1 vs 1 hitting them in the front. People hate change and this was a big change.

So if you want to post how the forge changes suck and ruin the game, please post it to this thread so we can keep the different discussions on topic.
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Re: Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

Post by Arnaya » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:52 pm

Since this is most likely to be taken as nothing more than the disgruntled overly dramatic whining of a drama queen.... lets just summarize it as: "The changes went too far".

If all of these changes are going to stand (Which they shouldn't. The P-mares shielding NEEDS to be decreased, and the Charge limit on forge at least needs to be dropped) the gen timers need to be at least halved, and the drop rate of Dreamsoul elems in particular (From mares) needs to be increased by about 50% of its current (IE: The number ranges for them, increased by half again of their current range. This still doesn't Massively increase the Dreamsoul Elem's around, but Should make them frequent enough to not require a single player or two to have to spend a week or two solid at the gens/hunting after a 20 minute fight).

So, I understand a lot of hard work went into this patch, and good job to the devs on the actual coding/design stuff.

To address the specific points that Koi-Shadow brought up:

1) "The realize that we sprung these changes without much warning, but we wanted to avoid everyone filling up every room of their house/inventory with the old forged items before the patch."

Irrelevant since someone felt the need to remove player forged talisman from house armories and vaults anyway.

2) Several points to address. Overall note, invalid/pointless concern.

A) That was a previous game, with a much higher player base that could still keep a house and members stocked from each member spending an hour or two every couple of days at a gen or hunting (IE: 50+ players). Not a game that has about 20 active players total, and only 6 to 10 at a peak on any given night.

B) Understood, but remedied with more moderate restrictions such as bringing the top end down to gen levels. The Charges still go ridiculously fast, as Tember, Magnum, etc can attest during the last "War" with the Peace Corpse. Again, this is only Really an issue due to the gens being incredibly slow and random to restock from. Also, given that items drop when people float... these great, high charge items Very frequently find their way into other peoples hands or are just generally removed from the Player Characters inventory during heavy combat encounters. and yes, people Do still float quite regularly even with the advantage of these apparently unbalancing "Super items". The simple requirement of changing from Dreamsoul to alterors has a Very solid record of getting characters floated. All the charges do is mean that the character has a couple extra pack spaces because they don't have to carry 2 or 3 of each critical alteror (RF, FA, Vis). This change of talisman happens quite a bit, especially given the number of enemies with Reflect, and the break through means that 2 to 4 charges of each elem are routinely used in each fight even when Abjure isn't a factor. (Basically, "Fixed" a problem that wasn't a problem). Also known as Mis-understanding the difference between using tools that Players have had their characters work Very long and hard to gain, with Abuse of an ability. More reasonable answer would have been to simply ask people to lay off stocking houses with Forged talisman in order to keep things "Fair" for the other players.

C) Didn't negatively affect Soulmasters, Just made it so that they could actually have another combat role besides "Sit your ass in sanc and restore for the duration".... which we STILL ended up doing more of than anything else.

D) Yes, they could have. No, they usually don't. And pack space limits already made it so that most often that item would get thrown out or put in a house armory anyway... which was still happening even with Forge at high levels.

3) This higher cost thing is fine, especially with Sacrifice being available to all house members. Still will have an impact (6 charges of Power Token take 300 prime strength after all... and that's for one high charged item. Oops, sorry. Not high charged anymore. Now 300 Prime strength will Sometimes pay for itself if an SM with trap 50 or 60 gets lucky on their trap evokes).

4) Frustrating, but reasonable.

5) Useful.

6) Interesting. Though I would personally have rather seen Combine itself tweaked and updated.

7) "So if you want to post how the forge changes suck and ruin the game, please post it to this thread so we can keep the different discussions on topic":
That's the tone the GM team wants to take in regards to player concerns and frustration? Really?

Again, Nice work on the coding and level design by the Devs. The "Keystone" changes just went a little too far and overall the patch displayed a remarkable level of Disregard for the activities (and lack there-of) of the Characters in game.

Main point, GM perception seems to be "Oh my god, the players are being whiney bitches about one of their toys being nerfed"...

when the actual point that should be addressed is: "The players are frustrated at their roleplays and actions in game having Zero effect on anything, and are frustrated at the complete lack of any meaningful communication from the GM's as a whole. Being told "We're always around" as justification for refusing to change rules and regulations...when any given GM character is seen once a month or less, or only by a small select group... and thus gets swarmed when they ARE around.

Don't mis-understand, I (and many of the rest of the players that I've spoken to) appreciate the work put in behind the scenes by the GM volunteers. But I at least, am beyond tired of being told to be a leader... putting effort into things, trying to do and support things that people are interested in, trying to ensure that there's things for people to do, deliberately putting aside things I'd like to do or have fun with to back and support others.... and getting basically a giant "F-you" in return time and again. Unless the that work involves something that the GM's are planning on doing anyway. THEN, there will be GM's coming out of the woodwork to support and back something (Which is most likely completely lacking in consistency of story and background, but what the hey... Sure. We'll get on board and try to do something.... Ooops. That support lasted a week, we'll see the GM/Character again in two months.

That includes the concerns that I mentioned to GM's about the new P-mares, which were universally met with no reply at the time (Sorry, there was one reply... that basically amounted to: "They need to be tougher, and you shouldn't be able to solo them") and were compounded by a complete disregard for level of playerbase active and present, and in game factual logistics... in favor of addressing vague opinions about abuse of an art that the main "Victims" of had the full options of addressing in game with their own arts.... and just didn't (Forge 70 something allows the creation of 10 to 30 elems and chaks after all, which are 40's. Still VERY usable combat equipment, especially with numbers on the "weaker" side). Seriously, the two "BIG CHANGES!!!" to Forge... the PT Cost, Item levels without PT (Specifically, chakram speed), and MAYBE dropping alterors to gen only levels are the only actually valid ones. Combine.... should have just fixed the Combine art. And NONE of it should have been done without there being In game work on it. Even if it was "Someone's attempt to make Forge more powerful backfired". With everything being done, the it feels like the players are an audience to the GM and Dev's newest toys/next coolest character.

There's less and less big activity in game, because there's more and more reason to believe it will be completely ignored by both in game support people and Devs... and most likely, the rest of the playerbase because we all know that Nothing is going to get done. We do roleplays for people to enjoy and get involved with and build on. Since the players arn't, and the GM's arn't.... there's less and less reason to DO Roleplays except for character advancement... and that of course, is just a chore that we get bored doing. And, since we can't communicate with the GM's to find out what they'd like to actually see on something (No, "This won't work. Do something else. Do what you think will work" is NOT communication)... when we get stuck, we have to wing it... which pretty much guarantee's the GM Team as a whole will ignore it.

So, the points I laid out above are my responses to the question of "Forge nerfs ruined the game".... and the main body of the text is the ACTUAL problem as near as I can see it on a whole and specifically in relation to me. I do appreciate the support I have gotten in game, and I know its more than a lot of people have gotten (both from players and GM's)... but it's still FAR below where things should be to create a thriving game that's enjoyable to play, and it's still Extremely frustrating to anyone that's TRYING to make things fun and enjoyable in game. and I'm just flat out exhausted, and frustrated, and done.

Yeah, I know. I'm being a whiney drama queen and should shut up and be grateful for what we've got and how dare I bash on the Volunteer's that run the game and OMG, what a bitch I am. Hopefully someone will bother to read this and address some of the issues contained. Good luck everyone.
~ Jan
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Re: Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

Post by Golah » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:19 pm

The point of forge is its supposed to be better and faster than a gen, hence why the art was so hard to obtain in the first place, and honestly only 2 players have forge 90. Forge is supposed to be one of those milestones people strive for, its sole purpose other than creation is to turn the tide, plain and simple, always has been.

With the way it is now might as well remove the token need entirely, so free spirits can use it as easily as house members, if we were to take fairness and balance into consideration, you basically leave them in the dust.

Secondly, it seems overly clear that seers, and senders seem to be getting the most improvements, if we were to really tie forge into the focii, each focii should have a bonus item they can make more powerful than the others, for example Gatekeepers should be able to make the best chakrams, soulmasters healing elemens, fatesenders etc etc.

Forge is not meant to be a balanced art, its clearly designed to give advantages to others, and at the same time create a want, need, and requirement to learn and advance it.

Power tokens should be used to create new items, or new designs, additionally with these changes, lets make everything forge able then, to balance out the down side using the same limitations etc.

Players are bound to advance themselves beyond what Lyra anticipated in its ception, hence Forge at levels like they are today

I am not sure really how to explain it better I can't really think clearly still

What is forge and why does it exist? No everyone is a pretty trinket maker, not everyone is a fighter, not everyone uses forge the same, we keep choking the arts down, and eventually it just becomes boring and mundane.

One last idea is to tie forge into focii directly, and only those focii can forge those items but in multiple shapes

Example Gatekeepers can make Freeaction, Wards, Chakrams,
Seers can make blades. vision, insert
Fatesenders can make resist fear, fire flames insert
Soulmasters can make elemens, antidote, curse insert

This way no 1 focus can make everything, it requires a team to survive and make items useful
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Re: Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

Post by Uthanatos » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:42 pm

Essentially, I'm just agreeing with Jan here. While I like the higher no PT talismen, it really has limited functionality and is only helpful for helping newlies, which, after reading notes, is what it appears to be intended for. Kudos, hit the mark there.

Multiple PTs for higher level items, good, go for it, spending 150 strength for a 10-22 ellie...yeah it may affect the primes, but it can cause people to be less frivolous with their forging, in the long run.

Combine forge....umm, why not just alter combine to allow the combining of objects with descriptions?

Alterors, honestly, from an abjurer's point of view, it reaaaally doesn't make a difference if people are carrying a 5-10 or a 30-60 minute alt. Either they have the skill to switch between talismen or they don't...flat out. I understand the reluctance to have zounds of alterors better than what can be genned, but, in the end, it doesn't make THAT much difference, except how often you restock. I can live life with 5-10 min alts, and for the most part (aside from chamele) that one charge is all I need unless of course I'm abjuring reflecters. When sham hunting, you just use up your will pool on FA then med between spawns, things like that.

Lowered maximum charges....WTFO -- Alright, I get that you don't want forged items to be an infinity ticket, great. The problem is, if I were genning and a 10-22 ellie popped up, I wouldn't keep it. Plain and simple, at natural maxes a 10-22 isn't worth keeping in your pack. If stocks are particularly low, then a 12-40 or 10-30 maybe. Those who maintain packs of forged items sacrifice potency for longevity....see my other post in patch day one.

So, if you REALLY wanted Combine forge instead of just the allowing of combining of forged items...you could institute a 49 cap on everything forged, meaning seers could combine forge for 98. Yeah, it'd hurt a bit, but it wouldn't be nearly as world shattering. What I see currently is that I'm spending a shitton of prime strength for.....items that I wouldn't even pick up. I don't mind spending the prime strength, I really don't, but not for a talisman I WOULDN'T pick up from a gen.

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Re: Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

Post by Cherokee » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:56 pm

I'm not going to complain too much, I know the GMs worked hard on this. There's a lot of great things about this patch, Translocate and the new builds especially. I love the Datoken improvements, I've always thought they were too easy to defeat. It was easy XP, I think they were abused. It made playing a pmare boring as well.

However, I do not like the changes to Forge either. Forge makes up for what the generators lack. We never had forge in SoT until the very end, because the gens were better. We had better items, zero cursed, and focus gens.

The dreamers that have 60 to 90 level Forge worked for those plats, and the spheres that allowed them to raise it to that level. An art that high should still be able to create more than what can be genned from the ground. When you accomplish something major, you shouldn't be punished by having your rewards taken from you, to accommodate others for the sake of fairness.
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Re: Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

Post by Erasmus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:19 pm

I essentially agree on most points here.

I understand not wanting people to be able to create talismans that are more "powerful" than can be picked up naturally. But the charges thing doesn't really add to power at all. Now, coupled with items that ARE more powerful, that's where the imbalance comes into play.

For example, an hour to two hour duration item is more powerful. By itself, if it had max charges equal to that of a naturally spawned item, it's still powerful. However, add an insane amount of charges to an insanely powerful item and there's the broken mechanic. Fix one or the other, not both. In my opinion, leave the charges equal to your level in Forge, but tone down the potency of the items to match naturally occurring items.

But on top of that, Forge was further neutered by increasing the cost while decreasing the function. A double hit. It's functionality was decreased by power and charges, PLUS it costs more to boot. Herein lies the anger. You have us a less effective art but increased its cost.

If the changes are to be left to Forge's new effectiveness, remove its Power Token requirement altogether. It's too restictive. People are just going to stop using Forge.

Now, add even MORE insult to injury... all of these changes to Forge are made at a time when items are needed even more with the introduction of stronger mares. No matter how long the "shiny new toy" syndrome lasts, pmares will still be hard to collapse. That doesn't change the need for talismans worthy of stocking in your pack.

So to summarize:

1. Less power. (Fine, I get it. Two hour durations are crazy).
2. Fewer charges. (Not much sense here if you are already tuning power)
3. Increased cost. (No sense at all here because of the reduced effectiveness all the way around)
4. Increased need for items. (Due to more powerful enemies)

My suggestions.
1. Reduce the power. Yes. Do this.
2. Leave the charges based on your plateau in Forge.
3. Remove the Power Token requirement altogether.
4. Do those things and it'll help mitigate the need for better items. Or:
4a. Increase the power and/or frequency of generators or generated items to offset the reduction in Forge.

Change was probably needed, but really only to balance extreme cases of Forge levels. If that's the problem, max Forge to 70 or whatever is deemed as the best cap. Forge in the 50-60 range is not unbalanced at all.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Post your complaints about the Forge changes here.

Post by Dina » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:43 pm

The only complaint I have is the whole charge thing with forge, other than that, so far I like all the new changes. You did great!

Dina is not in a house, so she really doesn't have access to endless pt's to make low charged items. Low charged "forged" items take up more space in our packs too, which is annoying. I rather make a 69 charged elemen instead of 3. It just makes it harder on those that are not in houses.
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