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Forge Tailsman

This out of character forum is for discussion of roleplaying, how to roleplay and roleplay coordination.
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Golah
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Forge Tailsman

Post by Golah »

For weeks now I have worked to get Forge into the air and discussed talked etc, it seems many players are reluctant to get into a good RP with a player because they have it grained into their head that if its not elder driven there is no reward. I used to think like that myself, I mean I was told I have to hold classes and show off my skills etc, the problem is I as a player do not show and tell on command, nor do I announce myself on scrolls, and hold classes, as a player teacher char, I teach always on spot in the moment so that others can learn and or share.

I have seen 0 Smiths hold classes, or teach forge in a fashion that is comparable with the reward of being a Smith, so what are we doing with this mark is it a decoration, or can we start to reconize players that are not smiths, and make them smiths because they are doing more for the Art and the Game as teachers than the current ones.

We make things so much harder than they have to be, and we often pass over good roleplays because there is no reward, what gives?

Purely a Question thing here, I have seen several players that are teachers, that deserve the Mark more than others, and yes that includes me, I have come and gone so many times I understand being passed over, but there is a reason I come and go, if you get slapped in the face so many times, eventually you give up.
Sidas
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Sidas »

There is a set means for obtaining the DreamSmith Mark: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1794.

In practice, it is far easier and with more visibility into it than the secretive interviews that previously occurred. Events are simple and merely a means for Character A to show their intent and willingness to do something. Complaining OOC isn't a means to get an IC "decorations". The non-smiths you mention have probably been approached at some point and do not want the mark, or are generally ineligible for the Mark due to violation of the (very few) Dreamsmith rules.

As for not doing anything with the Dreamsmith Mark, it would seem Dreiko has trained more people in Forge than Golah has trained anything since his return:
ABC has acquired a skill of 30 in Forge Talisman due to your training!
XYZ has acquired a skill of 30 in Forge Talisman due to your training!
MNO has acquired a skill of 20 in Forge Talisman due to your training!
JKL has acquired a skill of 10 in Forge Talisman due to your training!
RST has acquired a skill of 60 in Forge Talisman due to your training!
123 has acquired a skill of 30 in Forge Talisman due to your training!
789 has acquired a skill of 30 in Forge Talisman due to your training!
Now, what I would recommend would be to discuss your concerns IC. Approach a DreamSmith instead of refusing to broach the subject in front of them.
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Golah
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Golah »

Training and Teaching Forge are not the same Sid, I think you of all people know this more so than others. In the days of old, before the so called Circle, which was a joke in of itself, Elders (Lyrans) would observe and or reward based on Progress and Intent, What is wrong with using those ways to find suitable Smiths?

I don't care how many are trained in the art, I care more about how its being used, to enhance roleplays, That was one of my MAIN reasons for doing what I did with the Mark for Blade, and now I hear he was Struck, I have attempted several roleplays to enhance forge, but I get side stepped by Lyran Driven Roleplays, its a bit heavy on the side of THIS is the ROLEPLAY nothing else matters kind of concept.

Zaxums Mace should be Driving roleplays in so many directions, who made the mace how does it work, what can we make to counter it.

Instead its close the portal trap the fella and have some other fella Dreamstrike him, its becoming a bit heavy handed on the side of this is the path.

Players take cues from Lyra regardless how Lyra feels about player driven roleplays, if its Lyra based players will flock that way rather than with other players, the reason? Because they see Lyra roleplays bring rewards, changes, etc.

I think the latter part is much harder to fix, its been the way of any came that has a Developer driven char, or player.

I will of course continue doing what I am doing regardless, the point of this post is I see others better than me that deserve to be a trainer in forge, and I have spoken to them, I am not sure if rules were broken, but they are clearly skilled teachers, and use forge to enhance roleplays.

At this time Golah is not at the requirements for a Smith, it will take a few more months before he is ready, but others are, and thats just a fact.
Sidas
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Sidas »

Golah wrote:Training and Teaching Forge are not the same
That's all well and good for your character to believe IC but the sole reason for the DreamSmith Mark to exist is for allowing Players to teach Forge. Characters can claim variations on it, but in the end, that's why it's there. It's up to you for how you want to roleplay your character around Forge and the DreamSmith Mark, however there is a documented and approved means for obtaining (and losing) it.
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Butterfly
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Butterfly »

I think we all need to get over the assumption that nothing happens if we don't see it. I know for a fact that a project with the Mace is happening, but due to the nature of it it is not being shouted from the mountain tops. As people keep saying over and over again ad naseum, not everything needs to be public. Not all rps are rejected in favour of GMrps, but let's face it, the GMs have a limited window in which to engage the majority of the population each night. Right now, we are all competing for the same hours in which to get things done, reward or not.
I haven't held a class in a while, this is true, but that doesn't mean my character doesn't teach about Forge, not train, teach. Assisting others with item creation, talking about item creation and attributes counts for more than a class that no one cares about and whispers all the way through.
The point of the guidelines for the Mark were so there was not a population that lorded over the rest and yet did nothing with their Mark.
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Cianne
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Cianne »

People use forge to enhance Roleplays ALL the time, from the teeniest thing..like a small gift for someone to a many faceted device (several players having created "pieces") to do something phenomenal.
ie: Last dream Cianne got a "humour shield" not going to tell you what that is.. have to find out IC if you want to know. :lol:

Edit - if you were able to see in all the house libraries, Ive been in three, you would also see some really incredible "creations" in those, pertaining to specific roleplays.
~Practice patience and silent reflection in a moment of anger ~ It will save you infinite moments of regret~
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Golah
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Golah »

Thanks Cianne, that helps alot =)
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Inzoum »

I just DT'ed a ton of Forge projects because they were taking up so much room in our storage areas. It's alright though, all the creative pieces I make, I conserve the description and item details in not files to be able to recreate them again later or inspire myself with. Inzoum has been commissioned several times to craft items for roleplaying purposes, especially when it concerns gemstones and jewelry metals, which are his preferred type of craft. He uses his Forge mainly for RP.
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Dina

Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Dina »

Golah wrote:Purely a Question thing here, I have seen several players that are teachers, that deserve the Mark more than others, and yes that includes me, I have come and gone so many times I understand being passed over, but there is a reason I come and go, if you get slapped in the face so many times, eventually you give up.
Yup

Dina has a 69 forge and is a Master Teacher. Dina hasn't gone for the mark because she knows she wont end up with it. Dina has won contests with her forge and she uses it a lot with her teaching (for tasks), so evidently people like her work.

I am willing to have Dina work with Golah and see how screwed over we get for doing the requirements! I think it is 3 classes or events that deal with forge? We just need to make sure they are "big" enough for us both to get the mark and both be involved. If you want to try this, seek out Dina in game and bring it up. Some have already got the mark without even doing the requirements heh.
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Golah
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Golah »

Not sure who those folks are it was after I had left. I will help anyone get the mark that wants to learn it, I do not want it because quite honestly there are better players right now that should get it before me. I have too many other things to toy with before i'm ready lol
Dina

Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Dina »

LOL That's fine. I usually just don't deal with it. I spend most of my time in game teaching now days or helping with RP's. My dreaming times suck.

I think the requirements are dumb anyway, well the 3 classes/events, BUT nothing I can do about it like usual! Even holding events you can BS your way through and still be a shitty forger or teacher lol.
Sidas
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Sidas »

Dina wrote: Some have already got the mark without even doing the requirements heh.
Like?
Dina wrote:I think the requirements are dumb anyway, well the 3 classes/events, BUT nothing I can do about it like usual! Even holding events you can BS your way through and still be a shitty forger or teacher lol.
It is unfortunate that "do something" is too much of a requirement. Perhaps it should have remained at "spend 5 hours in a room with a bunch of people who just randomly decide whether or not you are special enough to get the Mark".
Dina

Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Dina »

I know Blade didn't hold classes, it was given to him because of Golah and did Eros? Did Off? I know Jade did. Did Arly? Did Thunder?

And don't be stupid. Anyone can hold events/classes and still be shitty at what they do. Perhaps coming up with a better way to show your talent would be a good idea? :roll:
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Golah
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Golah »

Dina, glad you remember. That roleplay died the moment Blade got his Mark, and nothing against him I just see what I see, the roleplay died and I have roleplayed the hell out of forge, anyone want to disagree with that please provide me proof. Holding classes is DUMB unless you are not doing anything else with Forge to speak of. If you have Merit and are working actively in the game, that should work in lue of classes, which returns me to my previous statement

Why can't we have Lyrans that reward people based on Merit instead of received notions via a class?

Is it a fear that lyrans can't be impartial, or a concept of giving players the power to decide?

If players have the power to decide, then why do we need to go to a Lyran to be trained?

What I want is a better understanding of US as players limitations on The Mark, and what are we as a base really looking for in a Smith?

I know I have role-played it very well, I have done many things, but that is not enough I need to hold a class, for so many times, WHY?
What counts as a class?
What counts as skill?
What counts as worthy?

These ideas and questions will help me decide on a better path for Golah to take, the thing that scares me is again the concept of roleplaying the task and mission out, I already saw an epic failure with my first major rp, that was the idea of forge flags etc some many moons ago, another failure with the passing of the mark in hopes of sparking roleplay, fail again .

RP against Zaxum, so far hitting a wall, cause some of the players see that a gm char wants to strike a gm char....not much roleplay there when its a GM versus a GM, I have tried to provide alternate ideas in game, and again the players see GM not golah. Zaxum's mace should directly tie into forge on so many levels, but a gm said we need to trap and then strike him...

Its their roleplay I get that, but why pass on a chance to really include forge into this rp and really get the minds working
Sidas
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Sidas »

Dina wrote:I know Blade didn't hold classes, it was given to him because of Golah and did Eros? Did Off? I know Jade did. Did Arly? Did Thunder?

And don't be stupid. Anyone can hold events/classes and still be shitty at what they do. Perhaps coming up with a better way to show your talent would be a good idea? :roll:
Arly did. Blade, Eros, Thunder, and Off received their Marks under the old Requirements. And yes, people can meet requirements and be horrible at what they do. The point is, this is an objective method of determination, generally removing opinion from the equation.
Dina

Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Dina »

Exactly Golah!

You handed yours over...You were even attacked by DoL! You still handed it over. You should not have lost your damn mark in the first place. Now they want you to hold 3 classes even though you were the only one not being greedy. I didn't see anyone else willing to hand over their mark.
Sidas
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Sidas »

Golah wrote: What I want is a better understanding of US as players limitations on The Mark, and what are we as a base really looking for in a Smith?

I know I have role-played it very well, I have done many things, but that is not enough I need to hold a class, for so many times, WHY?
What counts as a class?
What counts as skill?
What counts as worthy?
Do something.
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Cherokee
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Cherokee »

As Sidas has already mentioned, the purpose of the DreamSmith Mark is to grant the ability for teachers to train Forge. If you feel some players deserve to have the Mark, nothing is stopping them from going about the process to apply.

There is a lot that goes on that you are not and have not been around for. One example is Arlyana Jax used to hold classes on dissecting Charms/talisman and creating a specialty Charm.

Forge has been a major part of my character's roleplays. Jade is known to forge items for her students that go along with her tasks. She also uses it occasionally when condensing series codi in the library.

The current DreamSmiths voted on the new process to obtaining the Mark to make things more visible to the public, because the previous hidden two hour interviews were bias and full of silly questions. Having a requirement that actually has you go out there and demonstrate your ability and skill makes more sense.
23:48:24: Laviticas: (( I am going to ****ing say this now because I will not be back in the stupid game.)

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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by HarleyofCienn »

8====D
Last edited by HarleyofCienn on Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Golah
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Golah »

That was an attempt to get a roleplay going to get rid of smiths making choices about smiths, it failed horribly, no one role-played it they took their toys and ran. That was my price to pay. I can get around the requirements its just not in my chars game plan for himself right now, like I said if you really want the mark I will work with you on it and see where it leads, should prove one person right in the end.
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Arnaya
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Arnaya »

I keep being told about the "Old Days" when any mark was basically just a status symbol (Usually with the: "I was given this because I deserved it" argument) and that if you didn't kiss the GM's and their favorites rear ends (which apparently was how you "deserved" much of anything if you listen to some of the older players), you couldn't get anything. As for non-gm RP's, There's been quite a few of them held on a number of fronts... it just so happens that most of the GM RP's involve large scale or significant threats to the city.

I don't know about anyone else's characters, but if Arnaya has a choice of going to a workshop or whatever.... or trying to prevent something from tearing apart sanctuaries, or destroy a house facade, or dreamstrike her friends.... She's going to go try to stop the big bad. After all, if the Sancs are destroyed and a bunch of people dreamstruck, or a house torn apart it... the city is actually made weaker and more vulnerable, and people (often Arnaya's friends) get hurt. Arnaya's not the type to let that happen if she can prevent it. The workshop or whatever can be held another dream, or pushed back an hour or two if need be.

As for the requirements to get the marks... I'm fully aware that a lot of people arn't a big fan of the requirements, and several have outright said that if they arn't going to be courted and given it, they don't want it. That's up to them. Both of the marks denote responsibilities in game, not just honorifics. So, like many positions of responsibility in the real world... if you want that responsibility you have demonstrate a willingness and fitness to hold it. If you want to do something else in game to try and gain it or whatever... go for it. Whether a character agree's with the people "In charge" of something or not, the simple fact is that those people ARE "In Charge" of that facet. and randomly rampaging on how much they suck, or publicly trying to get the GM's to oust them, or bypass what's been setup, isn't going to win your character many friends or much support from those "In Charge" people.

As for teaching people to forge, Arnaya tried to do a class recently on just that. Take a random guess as to how many people showed up. For that matter, take a random guess as to how many people were willing to engage in conversation about it even outside of a class setting.

People don't want to learn things in game generally. Most of the players have been playing for 20 years off and on, and the characters have been well established with lists of accolades... so why should they listen or try to learn things. A bunch of players are only playing for nostalgia anyway, not to actually play the game but to remember times when they Did play the game. Most of the stuff they seem to want to do in game is bringing it back to what they knew "back when". That isn't All of the players by any stretch, but there's a few. So really, "teaching" them anything is pretty much a waste of time. They simply won't engage with the RP.

As for using Forge to further RP's.... that happens a TON. HC is doing a fairly large RP involving creating something, which is using forge at a number of steps along the way. Purple Lace is using Forge for a number of aspects her Alchemy RP's. In recent memory, Forge was used as the center point in two of the Revenant destruction projects and finds its use throughout day to day RP's quite frequently.
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Golah
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Golah »

Thanks Eros =) I would much prefer to see events like aforementioned as well. I think the miscommunication was I was told classes, now since Sid and a few others have reiterated its events, I feel a lot better about the requirements. So I will continue doing what I am doing and see about getting some other butts motivated for the Mark so we can have some more smiths.
Dina

Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Dina »

Oops I forgot to "classes/events" like in my other posts! Damn all to hell, my bad!
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Re: Forge Tailsman

Post by Uthanatos »

I'd point out that the difference between teaching and training is largely a moot point when it comes to forge. In many arts many teachers throw something together which may or may not actually teach anything. One of the biggest things I've noticed when tasking from Smiths, whether for forge or something else is that the tasks aren't designed just to be busywork, all of those tasks actually cause Uthy to learn something new or redefine something he thought he knew. Personal growth. Dreamsmiths are few and far between, and that mark is an identifier. Long before Uthy was 5th sphere, he had several long conversations with both BladeSlayer and Thunderman regarding talisman, in several aspects. The dreamsmith mark doesn't mean they need to hold classes that noone will attend, but that they should be willing to teach and are able to train forge. In all the events and classes Uthy has hosted, I can honestly say that more has been learned by dreamers who approached him individually or in small groups with an idea of something they were interested in, than in all those classes and events put together. The requirements for the events are a display of your ability and drive, nothing more. The mark is a beacon, for those who WANT to learn. If one dreamer spends one hour with one smith discussing some part of talisman creation that actually interests them, more has been accomplished than would be if each smith taught a weekly class. Many want to train, few, want to learn.
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