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The other side of UL

This out of character forum is for discussion of roleplaying, how to roleplay and roleplay coordination.
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Dakkoth
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The other side of UL

Post by Dakkoth »

Hey folks,

If any of you are looking for a different angle to Underlight, perhaps try controlling a character in KoES or one that supports Zaxun. Sure it doesn't have the big support community the rest of the dreamers cling to. But as a player of a character that does both, I have been having immense fun on this side of the spectrum. I will save my kudos for another thread but much respect for those keeping this alive in game and in character. I look forward to each and every moment I get to roleplay in this manner for the short times I am able to play.

~Mike
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Tember
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Tember »

Glad to finally see other people besides DoL taking the heat, and being on the "other side of the spectrum".

It is fun. Enjoy!
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Dina »

Um, people have tried. KoES had many members and now has what, 3? There is a reason for that lol. People tried to be on the other side.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Sidas »

I think this is a pretty bad crossover post. While, yes, playing on the "bad" side can be fun, that sort of migration should be from a naturally advancing Roleplay and not pigeon holed. Forcing a square character into a round hole only leads to a larger fracture in the long run.

If you want more people to join KoES, then it is probably in the best interest to change KoES to make it more appealing to the rest of the player base (i.e. Dreiko/Flower revamping OSM).
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Cherokee
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Cherokee »

I not only love, but encourage evil characters in Underlight – but as Sidas has already said, those types of characters should form naturally. If a character has history of being on the good side, there needs to be a legitimate reason for them to convert.

For example, Jade used to be a faithful in the Cult of Bashir. It took a large RP of the house closing and Bashir being killed for her to start taking another path. Since then, she hasn't strayed from the “good side” and the dreamers that know her knew it as well. Once I revealed my intentions within KoES, I had several people tell me that they knew I had to have something up my sleeve.

On the other hand, a person told me IC that they remained within KoES just for the sake of being evil. To me, that isn't truly an in character decision, because the best villains think they are right with whatever cause they fight for.

Perhaps those on that side of the spectrum should work on convincing others (IC) why joining KoES or allying with Zaxun is the way to go.
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Dakkoth
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Dakkoth »

This is not a crossover recruitment post. Even with that said, the title description for this forum states it's for OOC Roleplaying discussion and coordination. So why couldn't this topic be discussed in such a manner?

~Mike
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Dakkoth
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Dakkoth »

A lot of your comments, folks, are prime examples for my other post "too many dominant characters". While I don't know the specifics and do not wish to crossover, I can only wonder why controllers stopped playing on the other side. From my perspective it wasn't for a lack of action. There's not even any time to gen! I can only assume (and maybe it's wrong) that it is a case of character conflict and lack of willingness to concede/conform to the roleplay.

In any case, see you all in game some time.

~Dakk
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Jiovanni »

I've played a few villains in my time and I've learned that it's not always a black and white approach. Villainous characters are not always about doing evil things or just being "evil".

Often, with playing a sort of antagonistic character, you bring on a lot of attention to yourself from a playerbase where the majority of characters are the protagonist sort all believing they are acting in the greater good and most generously being 'heroes'. It can be overwhelming when you have about 20 players all trying to counteract your own attempts. Even when GMs are running antagonists, it can be quite the task.

The "other side" of UL from a player standpoint is never an easy path to walk on. I applaud the few that have the ability to do so with their own unique approach. It will always be an uphill battle in arena with little compromise from the majority.
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Sorsha
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Sorsha »

I wasn't going to comment on this, but I will just to give Kudos to 2 players who really impress me with their ability to keep going despite the conflict. The controller of Purple Lace and the controller of Lu Chaos. I do not think I could endure what these folks do. I have heard some horrible things said to these characters that would make me crumble into a puddle of tears. Remembering that we are all people with feelings running these characters, after awhile, shit yes, those words probably hurt.

It is hard playing "evil". I'm not too good at it myself. I try though. Who knows what lingers under the "cloister" 8-)

So "Lu" and "Lace" thank you for allowing me to RP with you. You are both incredible. I look forward to more!!

:)
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Coraal
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Coraal »

I just want to weigh in here and state, for the record, that I am very glad for characters that "everyone loves to hate". It keeps the social aspect of the game dynamic, if a bit one-sided, and allows for some extremely interesting interactions. In addition, for those characters who are so "hated", it is my personal opinion that these players are constantly in a state of character evolution due to the nature of opposition put against them. I think this is also a wonderful thing and I give the fullest amount of credit accordingly to these players (i.e. Purple Lace, Lu Chaos, etc).

Dakkoth's point is very well made and attempts to bring a bit more balance to a very lopsided equation. Unfortunately, the challenge of playing an "evil" character is in getting other players to buy in to your brand of evil, along with your characters own unique vision of such. A real problem in this is that "evil" characters tend not to be true team players. By their very nature, they become selfish, manipulative, and controlling to the point of egotism or megalomania. This tendency is extremely off putting and makes other players wonder why they are "wasting their time". Additionally, the difficulty level is increased when "evil" characters begin to make it known that, while they have an objective, those around them are considered expendable or not worth their time. Nobody, player or character, likes to feel this way and it is an excellent method by which a very sour taste is left in the mouths of many.

With this being said, I would truly love to see a creative RP flow that was subtle enough to ensnare other characters and sway them into following the lead of the Keepers and Zaxun. I mean, let's be honest. Zaxun will not be able to provide the level of community enjoyment this RP arc is seeking to provide the entire player base if only three or four players are actually following him. I should think that, due to this being the case at this point, a curveball is necessary in order to maybe get some additional momentum in the direction of Zaxun and the Keepers. I know it can be done with just a bit of creative thought.

Great post, Dakkoth! You gave my a lot of think about and I appreciate that!
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Uthanatos »

We did totally go over the abstract concepts of good and evil in a prior thread, quite similarly, just sayin.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Butterfly »

I think the current issue with the 'other side' is the personalities. Right now you are basically pro or anti Lace, which includes the Keepers and supporting Zaxun as she is right in the middle of it. This is not a criticism but an observation. You can't play a Keeper if you don't like her or don't want to support Zaxun. This is a major reason why many of the Keepers left and why many don't want to play that side. No one wants to be left in the dark as to what is happening within their house.

Lu has been on the 'other side' for as long as I have known him. He falls in an out of favour, but one again it comes down to being able to like him or not.

There may be people that want to be on the 'other side' but don't want to be pigeon-holed.

It's not that there aren't merits to these rps, but with such a small population, support has to come from places other than just the GMs.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by kendo »

there was a post called "try playing a darker dreamer" that had a good response and many of us attempted to do so. But the sad reality was apparent as soon as we did. There's a reason the house is dying, the smart ones have jumped ship.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Ceyllynn »

okay... i have to weigh on on this, i know, i haven't been playing much and i am sorry for that... to be honest i'm now on the fence about cey and bringing her back. the reason is nothing to do with the game other than, i feel i might not be able to play her as expected. those on FB who i have kept i contact with, and those who knew me years ago, know i have physical limitations. my left shoulder has been rebuilt 3 times and the damage to the arm is degenerative, i have nerve damage, and loss of feeling in 3 of my fingers, as well as pain. 2 years ago i tore out the medial(inner) tendons of my left elbow, i'm still waiting surgery to get the tendons moved back, which has caused me more problems with the hand and arm... of course i'm a mutant leftie. the will is there, physical capabilities just aren't. cey has a long history of fighting, and i used to be damn good at it as a player. at the very least it's going to take me a while to figure out a way to fight again. IC/OOC i cannot ask players to go easy on her, that's a crossover i don't want. she's a well established "evil" toon and bringing her back while changing her RP is not ideal. frankly playing her as a goodie doesn't appeal to me after a long history as a baddie.

when UL first started 16 years ago, the only "evil" toons were GMs, they had the firepower to back it up, because the game was made this way. i was one of the first to go against the grain, i'm ever thankful for the tehthu rp that allowed it, it was a great deal of fun at times. a lot of the time it wasn't, because most of the game is geared towards being "good". it's easier to get tasks/teach/hunt/gen etc, you have more places you can shelter etc. when most of the dream is against you, sometimes you want a little peace, and attacks can be culmative and wear you down... object and you get "but you choose to play evil!", while forgetting there is a player behind the toon who just got attacked by 5 different houses in the single hour they tried to gen. finding that balance is very hard, it can be done, either by being more powerful or good at making friends and playing both sides. the mold of GMs evil/players good, was broken, more and more started towards the darkside and it got better. better, but still a hard road for anyone who sends their toon down this path, it's not an easy path period.

koes has always been a house of contention, lyra's solution to that issue when it finally opened to try and resolve some of them, was an epic failure. as long as the "evil" dreamers try and hold it, it will always have issues with memberships and fighting for that side. not because the beliefs are wrong, but because as a playerbase, most are "good". the few who have the "evil" toons get worn out, get tired of consantly fighting to do anything, and the back biting nature of the "evil" toons means they're fighting each other as well. i honestly don't know a solution to the issue, and i am no longer willing as a player who got burned way too many times involving that house, to ever get cey crested in it again. OOCly i know this... ICly cey has of course unresolved issues with it after so many years of her trying to open it... she has a serious love/hate relationship with it, but i've ever played her fluidly and gone with whatever happens to her IC... even if i don't want to or agree OOCly.

i've been reading and following the IC/OOC threads on the invasion, i love the RP... i also know how cey would react... the same as always, balance of the dream, and these invaders are skewing the balance she's never given up her beliefs. so as much as i understand mike's post about maybe switching sides, and i know how much fun being bad is... cey would actually join those against them. this doesn't mean others couldn't convert, cey is a long established toon with her stedfast twisted support the dream beliefs, others might be able to be more fluid and drift towards that side.
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Arnaya
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Arnaya »

Another issue, is that people arn't "Good" and "Evil" entirely. Even some of the worst "Villians" in the real world had qualities about them that were admirable. Made people sympathetic to them or want to follow them. The only reason Arnaya isn't viewed as a bit more of... umm... tainted character, is simply because the circumstance and opportunity for her do "dark" things havn't come around. She's got the motivation to do a couple of things, but the opportunity to make them a reality hasn't happened.

The best advice I have for anyone, is QUIT TRYING TO BE "GOOD" or "EVIL"!! Make your character a person. Purple Lace is, honestly, a villain. Not because she's deliberately a bad guy... but because it (it looks like anyway) that she's scared, too proud to admit it, arrogant to the point of blindness about her own importance, and thinks she's so good that she can manipulate the situation to accomplish her own objectives. The Character isn't trying to be evil, she's basically just Selfish, Arrogant, and Manipulative. The Character believes she's doing the right thing, trying to expand the dreamscape and grow her own powers to achieve true mastery of the dream and all of that. All of these conflicts are transitory, and will keep happening... so there's no reason not to try and use them.

That's how she comes across in game. Most of the other people that jumped onto the bandwagon, didn't seem to have any motivation like that could be seen in game like that. In the case of big bads like Zaxun... there is little about them to recommend joining them. Their objectives are highly destructive to Everything in the city basically, aimed at the utter subjugation or destruction of Everything in their way... including all of the PC's allies and infrastucture. So, ICly... unless someones trying to use the big bad in the short term to further their own ends in the long term.... which basically means once the big bad has served their purpose, they'll be set up and knocked down because they have to be in order to preserve the PC's own end objectives. There really isn't any reason at all to back them. The Big Bad in this case doesn't even offer safety and security, merely a "I won't destroy you if you serve me". Which means if your playing a boot licking toady... There you go, great guy to hook up with for a while. If your not, he has little to nothing to offer long term.

Xun'rok isn't much better, though is perhaps a bit nobler in purpose (he's trying to avenge all the destroyed cities and struck dreamers that Zaxun has hit)... he still doesn't offer any real reason to side with or trust him. Most people are fighting along side him because he's the least destructive of the two options right now, you'll note that pretty much no one really trusts him (Arnaya even went for her "interview" with him fully arted, with recall and every layered art she had except for Mind Blank... and had her hand on a chakram or dreamsoul elem the entire time).

Its not that either Xun'rok or Zaxun's goals are hard to understand...or that the character believes themselves to be villains at all. Both view themselves as champions and hero's for their respective causes, and in much earlier days in the game (at least from what I've been told)... both would have had substantial forces rallied around them on the Illuminate/Freesoul front alone. Both characters are Villains... but they are both Characters that come across as people. Fanatics, but people. Just the current structure makes both of them so destructive, that neither could be reasonably considered for full and utter support. Xun'rok is just the uncertain villain... the one we can't be sure of, while Zaxun is the more frightening one.. the immediate threat.

So, yeah. To close... don't play a "Good guy" or a "Bad guy". Play your character. What goals and objectives do they have? What is their past like? How did they respond to some of their past situations? How would they respond to things similar to past traumatic events? What sorts of things do they admire or loath in others? And remember... even "bad guys" have friends and loved ones that they will protect... out of self interest for what they hope to get from the person if no other reason. If you can side with a big bad while still being true to your character... go for it. Just keep in mind that no real person is going to sign up to follow a murderer or rampaging monster against everyone and everything that they know, just because it looks like fun.. and those few that would are commonly known as sociopathic lunatics that are either locked up, or killed because they're too dangerous to a society, expect no less in game ;)
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Lu Chaos »

I had to weigh in on this post as well...

Lu Chaos has never been a good character or an evil character in my eyes.. I have always played him to be the aggressive, wanting to be the best warrior, champion of the city. That is just how I've always played him.. He may be viewed as sort of an evil character because of the way he walks down his journey, but he has always done it for the greater good of the city. Even during his Consortium days he still got those practice chakrams and blades forged while the whole city was against him just so they can practice defending themselves...

All in all, the other side of UL is damaging, if you are doing it simply just to call yourself a quote on quote "evil" character. Then you are in the business for the wrong reasons. Do what your character does best and whatever alignment you fall under, it is what it will be. Lu Chaos was considered an evil character because he was thought to be on the enemies side, but the whole time he was undercover infiltrating in order to bring the enemy down.. It's all perspective, but being on the opposite side of the war will always be damaging, it's just the way it is.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Tary »

I've said it before and I'll say it again: evil characters still have motivations. Evil isn't sociopathy, it's just the dogged refusal to accept any reality except for the one the evil person believes. Using that definition I wouldn't necessarily call Tary evil. But Tary isn't good either. If I could play more, at better times, I'd have a chance to develop Tary more but I don't have the time and my time zone just doesn't align properly (in addition to the fact that my daughter basically no longer sleeps which has BEEN AMAZING).

That being said, some years ago I decided to make Tary "evil." I was really bad at it. Tary was just kind of an ass, really annoying, just destructive and generally a nuisance. When I started playing again some years later I wasn't sure how to continue that thread, but I've decided to mellow Tary out slightly. He's still not really good, but he's not going to summon a whole slew of dark mares to destroy the city. At the end of the day he wants Underlight to exist, it's just that he thinks he's better than everyone else and should be some version of the king of the dream.

So, no, Tary's not evil. His beliefs are malleable, and to a great extent he doesn't believe in much of anything and he's loyal to almost nobody except for himself. Everything -- and I do really try to make it literally everything -- Tary does has some sort of ulterior motive. He is playing the long game on a bunch of threads that he is trying to pull together, even now. He's kind of like a spy, but he doesn't work for anyone and his machinations are entirely self-serving. I'm not sure if that really defines evil, but certainly I wouldn't call him good. If you've ever read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (it's a fanfic spinoff and is incredible) I basically envision Tary as a Professor Quirrell of sorts.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Uthanatos »

I really need to agree with Matt here. Characters have their own motivations and goals and they really do develop on their own. Uthy was an idealist 6 months ago, today, he's far more pragmatic, and he's flexed WAY outside what he would have considered acceptable methods back then. Evil isn't evil just to be evil. Those who end up evil, normally think they are doing the right thing. The hard part is, as with real life, conviction. When KoES started thriving, they would have boosted each other's conviction that they were doing the right thing, but as morale falls, and people abandon the cause, you end up questioning your own resolve. Either you realize you may have gone to far, or you steel yourself with the knowledge that it is the only way. No matter how it turns out, it's not someone else's fault they don't share those convictions. To make a character and say, "This guy is gonna follow bad guy A", is really making a hollow character and takes a lot of the fun and depth out of the roleplaying aspect. I will point out that background plays a big role in character thought processes. Uthy has been politically and socially ruthless on several occasions, cutting things off before they can even get started, because he thinks more in social terms than physical terms most of the time. What keeps him from being "evil" is that people believe he is doing the right things for the right reasons, just as he does. Just my two bits.
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Re: The other side of UL

Post by Ceyllynn »

i used the term evil in my example... i guess i should have said dark... but cey has killed toons via rp, to get what she wants to further her dream balance and vengence, by most definitions since those toons were "good" what she did was "evil"... but she does do good, so villian is a better term in some ways.
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