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So question

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Toregord
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So question

Post by Toregord »

Just how much work should go into a plateau task for 10 for blade I ask after being degraded by an elder for not working hard enough on my task and engaging enough. I figured a couple trial an errors for a first plateau would of sufficed with one final result. So do you think to learn arts are way too easy and should focus on setting the dreamer in the a path or leave things alone?
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Cherokee
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Re: So question

Post by Cherokee »

Lower plateau tasks are always easier than a Learn. I weigh my task difficulty on a scale based on which orbit the art is learned, if it is minor or major, and learn or plat level. A GateSmasher 10 plat should be fairly easy and should not involve much of an end result to anything. You start expecting results around 40 plats. However, blades are Majors and I would make a 10 plat more difficult than say Meditation 10. But not every teacher is the same. We must learn the hard way to find the ones we enjoy more.
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Arnaya
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Re: So question

Post by Arnaya »

depends on the trial and error in question? I've found that elder tasks are a bit harder than what Arnaya usually gets for a similar plateau from another teacher... but Arnaya also puts a lot into her quests. Not just going for the "Minimum possible" work, but making sure its done right as best she can.

I don't think the learns and 10 plats are too hard, at least from what I've seen in game *shrugs*
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Clarity
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Re: So question

Post by Clarity »

Like others said, it tends to be largely dependent upon the teacher. Elder tasks often end up being a bit more difficult, though not terribly so. You should go into them expecting to work.

I know I base a lot of tasks on the person tasking. If I as a player know that someone is going to rise to the occasion, i might ramp up the difficulty a bit. If i know they play off-hours i may reduce the amount of interaction they would need... So honestly it wouldnt surprise me if someone tasking someone expects more or less from the report based on previous work and such.
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Jiovanni
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Re: So question

Post by Jiovanni »

As I glance at the question, I'm not sure what the original intent of the post is - whether a veiled complaint or seeking an answer to a question that is rather subjective on a case by case basis.

There is no exact science to gauge how difficult or simple a task should be for a quest. There is always the formula of quest = merit vs reward (completion?). Every player is as unique and individual as the next and therefore tasking is tailored to the individual based on his or her interests and desire to progress. Teacher and students enter into a verbal agreement that many take for granted. The teacher maintains the right to quest his or her student within the parameters of the guidelines as well as teach whom they see fit to advance or otherwise. Students, on the other hand, retain the right to seek out a teacher, be it player or GM, to advance. No one is forced to write or accept a quest at chakram-point.

Keep in mind that teacher places their halo on the line 100% of the time that they successfully train a student. Each and every single time, I promise be they players or GMs. Each quest is recorded, documented, and reviewed by the team (as necessary). With this knowledge in hand, players and GMs alike are responsible for their grants and they maintain the right to make sure their quests are completed to their standards (and the underlying standards of the Teaching System within reasonable accountability) which means if they feel a task is NOT complete or outline by their instruction. Can a teacher modify the quest they grant? Absolutely. Can the student refuse to pursue the quest? Yes. Its a two-way path,

In regards to Elder Masters, think about what the concept of an elder master teacher is and let it ruminate a bit. By the very definition of the term, they are meant to be the apex of the teaching standards and are geared towards the demands of the end-game players. The mindset is not to make their quests impossible to complete but to set the bar higher than most player teachers would given their time is valuable and spread thin. There is a lot more going on with Elder Masters in terms of communication, coordination, and overall applicable know-how.

At the end of the dream, no one is perfect. We all make mistakes and we're all prone to the human factor for the capacity of making errors. If you want NPC-dispensed quests - there are several hundred MMORPGs that will definitely not disappoint. The teaching system within Underlight is a dual-edge sword of the game because its often a case of darn if you do, and darn if you don't. Its one of the few things that sets us apart from every game out there in our genre and the one thing that needs to be constantly monitored for any breakdown in the system which could break the game if left unchecked.

C'est le rêve.
Noidea
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Re: So question

Post by Noidea »

Toregord, I'd say something but I didn't quite understand your last sentence, I'm afraid.
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Toregord
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Re: So question

Post by Toregord »

Jiovanni wrote:As I glance at the question, I'm not sure what the original intent of the post is - whether a veiled complaint or seeking an answer to a question that is rather subjective on a case by case basis.

There is no exact science to gauge how difficult or simple a task should be for a quest. There is always the formula of quest = merit vs reward (completion?). Every player is as unique and individual as the next and therefore tasking is tailored to the individual based on his or her interests and desire to progress. Teacher and students enter into a verbal agreement that many take for granted. The teacher maintains the right to quest his or her student within the parameters of the guidelines as well as teach whom they see fit to advance or otherwise. Students, on the other hand, retain the right to seek out a teacher, be it player or GM, to advance. No one is forced to write or accept a quest at chakram-point.

Keep in mind that teacher places their halo on the line 100% of the time that they successfully train a student. Each and every single time, I promise be they players or GMs. Each quest is recorded, documented, and reviewed by the team (as necessary). With this knowledge in hand, players and GMs alike are responsible for their grants and they maintain the right to make sure their quests are completed to their standards (and the underlying standards of the Teaching System within reasonable accountability) which means if they feel a task is NOT complete or outline by their instruction. Can a teacher modify the quest they grant? Absolutely. Can the student refuse to pursue the quest? Yes. Its a two-way path,

In regards to Elder Masters, think about what the concept of an elder master teacher is and let it ruminate a bit. By the very definition of the term, they are meant to be the apex of the teaching standards and are geared towards the demands of the end-game players. The mindset is not to make their quests impossible to complete but to set the bar higher than most player teachers would given their time is valuable and spread thin. There is a lot more going on with Elder Masters in terms of communication, coordination, and overall applicable know-how.

At the end of the dream, no one is perfect. We all make mistakes and we're all prone to the human factor for the capacity of making errors. If you want NPC-dispensed quests - there are several hundred MMORPGs that will definitely not disappoint. The teaching system within Underlight is a dual-edge sword of the game because its often a case of darn if you do, and darn if you don't. Its one of the few things that sets us apart from every game out there in our genre and the one thing that needs to be constantly monitored for any breakdown in the system which could break the game if left unchecked.

C'est le rêve.
Thank you that actually makes a lot of sense for someone has just started. No not a complaint what so ever merely curious as to what other's thought about the process
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coltdorsey
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Re: So question

Post by coltdorsey »

I think you make good points Blade, though I feel this shouldn't be an absolute. In the case of Thunderman, there were a few plateaus Thunderman could have learned from Ghazgkull, however Ghazgkull very openly and frequently belittled Thunderman, so naturally Thunderman would rather not plateau the art sought, than to task from Ghazgkull. Thunderman believed tasking from him would affirm and enable Ghazgkull more. In the circumstance I mentioned, I completely appreciated being able to task from a GM MT.

With a smaller population, capitalizing on all the teachers you can with the current restriction of one quest per Teacher seems natural but does have its drawbacks.
Uthanatos
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Re: So question

Post by Uthanatos »

While, for the most part, I agree with Blade, there are instances, where, for the sake of the character, an Elder is best. For instance, with Dina gone, I have only crossed paths with Dakkoth and Shae in recent memory for SM teachers and not terribly recently with Dakkoth. I generally only see Shae as she is waking or at the SM meetings when she is swamped. So, until Arnaya gets her halo or some overlap changes, yeah, I'll definitely ask an elder for a task. I'll note however, that I will also work my ass off to exceed expectations as I do with almost every task. That said, regardless of how simply a task is written, it's how you approach it and how much effort you seem to have invested that will come across in your report. Remember that a task is not some chore you do for your allowance. Each and every task should help your character grow, whether broadening perceptions, deepening understanding or adding layers of personality. The simplest of tasks, approached with that understanding can become something that truly helps shape your character and the dream. Now, since I'm on my phone and typing is annoying, I'll stop my rant there.
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Arnaya
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Re: So question

Post by Arnaya »

Pretty much what Uthanatos said. Overall, I agree with what Blade (and a number of others) have said.. there is a problem for SM's right now unfortunately. From what i've been told, this isn't a new thing and its always a problem for at least one focus, but right now there's only one teacher that can actually help Arnaya plateau any of her arts...Shae. Since I can only play reliably later in the evenings, Arnaya pretty much never sees her... so she has to go to elders a bit at least. Same with GK's, though thankfully Jade is around at odd times to help mitigate that. Em'et for the FS, and LadySilver for the DS are similar.

I have Arnaya put a lot of work into her quests, and always go a bit above and beyond to make sure that the quest is finished right the first time... and a number of quests that Arnaya did early on have come in handy with newer quests, or helping other people with their quests. Hope this makes sense lol
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
Noidea
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Re: So question

Post by Noidea »

Interested to know what you mean by earlier quests "coming in handy with newer quests", Arnaya? I often feel like I'm doing and writing up the same or similar quests over and over again.
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Sidas
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Re: So question

Post by Sidas »

Arnaya wrote:Pretty much what Uthanatos said. Overall, I agree with what Blade (and a number of others) have said.. there is a problem for SM's right now unfortunately. From what i've been told, this isn't a new thing and its always a problem for at least one focus, but right now there's only one teacher that can actually help Arnaya plateau any of her arts...Shae. Since I can only play reliably later in the evenings, Arnaya pretty much never sees her... so she has to go to elders a bit at least. Same with GK's, though thankfully Jade is around at odd times to help mitigate that. Em'et for the FS, and LadySilver for the DS are similar.

I have Arnaya put a lot of work into her quests, and always go a bit above and beyond to make sure that the quest is finished right the first time... and a number of quests that Arnaya did early on have come in handy with newer quests, or helping other people with their quests. Hope this makes sense lol
Dreiko's getting close to being useful to SMs but the secondary focus thing did end up being a big hit to the teaching structure. We learned about the restrictions -after- I had swapped, so that didn't help with a lot of things. Since, as of now you have three teachers with high plateaus (70, 70, 60 -- I believe) that can't teach any focal art, blade, or flame. Fortunately a resolution for this is being worked on.

I wonder if there could be a potential short-term solution where the multi-focused teachers (or even all MTs) could write tasks for any art they possess up to their train level, with the understanding that a GMMT would potentially honor it -- if it were acceptable. That would significantly help SMs and GKs in the meantime.

A (better?) alternative could be that multi-focused teachers could write tasks for their primary focus arts and have any of their focal MTs and GMMTs being allowed to honor them. That would help DS and GK but not really SM since Dreiko can't honor the majority of what Blade can write tasks against.
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Arnaya
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Re: So question

Post by Arnaya »

Noidea wrote:Interested to know what you mean by earlier quests "coming in handy with newer quests", Arnaya? I often feel like I'm doing and writing up the same or similar quests over and over again.
For one of Arnaya's early quests (I think it was a 10 plateau when she was 1st sphere, I'd have to look at my quest notes to remember for sure) she had to look at how one specific art actually worked. From that, she got a good little baseline idea of how arts in general work (at least in theory). Since then, that information has been used on 5 other quests of hers directly, and been used to help out 6 other people with different quests that they had. Once, someone was quested to figure out how to create an art. Referring back to her notes on how arts work let her provide some ideas to the other dreamer on how they might be able to create their art, and different things to consider in the process.

For another, she used the descriptions of a room (Mineral Springs in Harrow Glades) and a history that she found while researching stuff to come up with these little spiders that are running around in there, usually keeping to the dark cracks and crevasses on the roof and in the in-flows to the room. That's expanded a bit to finding an antidote to their bites, and now to taking a small group on a safari to try and catch one of the spiders (and a couple of other animals) that she's found in different places around.... and has to use the appropriate safety gear to catch them lol. I expect to have her build that into further projects and quests as time goes on too.

Several quests have helped her define what sorts of relation ships she'll accept into her dreams (on a close basis), helped her come to terms with and define her beliefs, and create several of the articles that it looks like people are referencing a lot... plus encouraged her to continue with doing that sort of thing (despite the fact that I find it tedious a lot of the time lol).

Like Arnaya told Deeter the other night, a Quest doesn't guarantee someone will learn or grow... just give them the opportunity :)

On Dreiko's note: The options mentioned make sense (I'd back the last one heavily). Its the simplest and most direct way of solving the issue that I can see
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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