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Prime Drains

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Dina
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Prime Drains

Post by Dina » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:57 pm

That was very significant in game and yes, a bit harsh. It is a good idea, don't get me wrong, but you will always have people go in for 5 seconds so they don't lose their crest then log out. There needs to be some kind of help for the houses on this if there will be that significant of drains. We don't even know who all has a crest still since people just lose them for being MIA or they demote themselves out. I do think the Rulers and Guardians should have an art that says who is still crested or perhaps a message that is always on the boards that shows crested members and ranks. The people that carry crests and only come in for those 5 seconds, we never see them to demote them or even ask them to demote out. HC and the Bastion houses are very active in membership and yet they were hit very hard. Both houses have RP's going on. That should show for something. I am not sure about OoSM, I do see them, so you can add them into this as well and some help with these RP's.

Is there anything that can be done, so we can see who all has a crest? Then maybe we can do some RP to get rid of those that never play! Dina will wave her hands around and say "abracadabra be gone" or something a bit more exciting lol. I think the houses have to have so many in it, but if you have at least 4 or 5 solid active members, that should count.

Perhaps Bosley or the other guy can put something on the Archives explaining the rules as well. Just draining the prime and us not knowing the details of it, just doesn't work. I want to see Bosley in game so Dina can ask these questions, but he Dina never sees him.
"I have this weird sort of Gemini thing where I can really be empathetic and a loving person. But if you piss me off, I can be one of the meanest, most sadistic people." - Wilhelm Reich
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Arnaya
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Arnaya » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:54 pm

Check out the newsfeed, Dina. It has pretty much all of the information there. The MORE crested members, the lower the hit. The only thing we don't really know, is how often the drain is going to hit.

The idea of having an art or something that would tell us who is still crested though would be a great idea. Even if it was just something in the mission boards that gave them a list of current crested members?
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Dina
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Dina » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:05 pm

With such a small community though, the drain for the Basion was HUGE! I donno, this is just a pain! If alts counted, I would put all my damn alts in the house just to help it! Yes, I know...alts don't count. BUT if that rule changes, please let me know! I would just have to learn how to play a zillion chars back to back! I've done it before! BUT, to think that people are to the point of trying it, says something.

Can we have it looked at again?
"I have this weird sort of Gemini thing where I can really be empathetic and a loving person. But if you piss me off, I can be one of the meanest, most sadistic people." - Wilhelm Reich
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Arnaya
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Arnaya » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:04 am

Yeah, it is a pretty big hit. Especially for the smaller houses. HC and the Bastion, it actually isn't too bad for as long as we're somewhat active (assuming its a monthly "rent"). OoSM can soak it fairly easily as well with even moderate activity....the others however, it's a bit more of an impact.

Maybe increasing the reduction for each rank would help a little there?
The most important lesson I've learned over this past year, is not to let anyone make you cruel. No matter how badly you want to give the world a taste of it's own bitter medicine, it is never worth losing yourself.
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Uthanatos
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Uthanatos » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:03 pm

I’d say it should be reversed, to help smaller houses grow and make wanton initiation prohibitive. Perhaps something like a 20k base and add for each crested member with dual crested charging both houses. 5k per ruler 2.5 per guardian and 1k per initiate.
“Sometimes it isn't easy to be sane, smart, and responsible. Sometimes it sucks. Sucks wang. Camel wang. But that doesn't turn wrong into right or stupid into smart.”
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Erasmus
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Erasmus » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:45 pm

Obviously my take on this is slightly biased because of my primary character's affiliation, but I'm torn on the prime drain in its current forum.

First, I believe it is WAY overboard. Even larger houses are complaining about how much they are having to do to maintain upkeep. Imagine a smaller house. (I'll get into the idea of house size in a minute.) It forces you into some of the more grueling activities. Now, AoE being a peaceful house is limited in its ability, no matter how many members they have. Sure, you could argue that we put ourselves in this position, but the mechanics COULD allow for a peaceful house to succeed with some simple changes. As it stands, Erasmus can only sacrifice for essences and I only have an hour or two at most to play most days, and some days not at all.

I think it should be similar to what Uthanatos mentioned. Start the drain at 10-20k per month and increase based on membership, not to exceed a certain amount, maybe 40k.

Why do we want to consolidate all the houses into two? That's boring. It doesn't encourage differences in beliefs. I'm not saying open all the houses for anyone that wants one, but if a house has a unique idea that isn't a carbon copy of another and there are people that want to be in it, who cares? If we had tons and tons of people, it'd be different. But we don't. Some house will be small.

In another post I'll post my opinion on houses in general.

Come up with a way to encourage houses to mean something beside an art and a mission board. Not penalize people who don't like to hunt, whether for game time purposes, RP purposes, or whatever.

My two cents on that.
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Dina
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Dina » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:58 pm

I just wish people that hardly ever dreamed, would just stay crestless. Kailee wont even join a house and she made it clear in game that she would not want to hurt the house by joining and never being around to contribute. Don't be an ass and keep a crest when you hardly ever dream, plain and simple. Allow the houses to demote you, or demote yourself.

It seems the less activity you have because of less members, you are being coddled and the bigger houses are getting screwed. The houses that are actually keeping the game going. I just hope we are listened to and not ignored. We don't mind the drain, but it was ridiculous.
"I have this weird sort of Gemini thing where I can really be empathetic and a loving person. But if you piss me off, I can be one of the meanest, most sadistic people." - Wilhelm Reich
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Koi-Lupine
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Koi-Lupine » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:19 pm

I've been thinking about this for a while. Since I went in and drained the primes and observed people's reactions. The drain was originally going to be twice as much as it currently is. You can thank your team of GM's for talking me down to the current base, which as previously stated by players is in fact 50,000.

What I don't want to do is reveal every aspect of game mechanics, because I believe discovery to be part of what roleplaying is about. What I will do is dispel an incorrect piece of information I keep seeing pop up...

The amount of the drain is reduced by the number of members you have, this was relayed through Bosley. The drain is reduced by a differing amount based on the ranks of a house's members, with Initiates reducing it the most.

While I do not feel that I should tell you exactly how the drain is calculated I will tell you that the idea put forth by Uthanatos would, in fact, double the drain for House Calenture. So, at that point, we would be penalizing a house for having members.

Lastly, I would like to remind you that the current drain is part of the ongoing 'RP' which you find yourselves currently part of.
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Dina
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Dina » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:32 am

Koi-Lupine wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:19 pm
I've been thinking about this for a while. Since I went in and drained the primes and observed people's reactions. The drain was originally going to be twice as much as it currently is. You can thank your team of GM's for talking me down to the current base, which as previously stated by players is in fact 50,000.

What I don't want to do is reveal every aspect of game mechanics, because I believe discovery to be part of what roleplaying is about. What I will do is dispel an incorrect piece of information I keep seeing pop up...

The amount of the drain is reduced by the number of members you have, this was relayed through Bosley. The drain is reduced by a differing amount based on the ranks of a house's members, with Initiates reducing it the most.

While I do not feel that I should tell you exactly how the drain is calculated I will tell you that the idea put forth by Uthanatos would, in fact, double the drain for House Calenture. So, at that point, we would be penalizing a house for having members.

Lastly, I would like to remind you that the current drain is part of the ongoing 'RP' which you find yourselves currently part of.
So it has nothing to do with how much a member dreams at all? Where did I hear this then???? Bah! Course it still causes an issue when you can't demote someone down when they aren't around and doing the go in game for so many seconds then leaving. Is there something we can do about that? Would be nice to know who all has a crest and their rank. Can Bosley let us know in game, if we ask him? Dina doesn't see Bosley, so she can't ask him. I guess if they are initiates, we have nothing to worry about, just the higher ranks.
"I have this weird sort of Gemini thing where I can really be empathetic and a loving person. But if you piss me off, I can be one of the meanest, most sadistic people." - Wilhelm Reich
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Brother Timothy
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Brother Timothy » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:39 pm

Something nobody seems to have addressed here is the effect of the prime drain on the focus balance. It makes soul masters far more valuable, and throws off the poor focus balance even further. Personally I think this aspect of the game has been neglected.
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Brother Timothy
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Brother Timothy » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:03 pm

Recently I have noticed yet another problem with this policy. As many of you know Brother Timothy hunts for AoE. So with all the new dreamers coming in he has a choice. Does he hunt to help keep the house afloat, or does he help the dream by helping the new dreamers?
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Dina
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Dina » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:56 pm

Brother Timothy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:39 pm
Something nobody seems to have addressed here is the effect of the prime drain on the focus balance. It makes soul masters far more valuable, and throws off the poor focus balance even further. Personally I think this aspect of the game has been neglected.
Then start recruiting those SM's lol.
"I have this weird sort of Gemini thing where I can really be empathetic and a loving person. But if you piss me off, I can be one of the meanest, most sadistic people." - Wilhelm Reich
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Raas
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Raas » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:55 pm

When developing the House drain calculations, the original intent was to address the SM trap nightmare imbalance alongside prime draining, but the team couldn't agree on this point (this probably needs a unilateral decision, as frankly too many people are emotionally invested in it and/or don't think clearly about it).

People have a very hard time delineating "strategic" balance vs. "tactical" balance.

Whereas each focus has its own incredible and unique tactical value on the battlefield, no focus has even remotely the strategic value as a Soulmaster, due entirely to Trap Nightmare.

The imbalance is such that a house of 5x Soulmasters with Trap absurdly outpaces a multifocal house of 15x "regular" dreamers, as far as essence collection. It's not even close. We ran the numbers a while back and the imbalance is pretty absurd.

The solutions are that the other foci also need a level of "strategic" arts to improve essence collection efforts, or diminish the essence collection of others. Allowing the current imbalance to persist is a really bad idea.
~Ra'as
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Dina
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Dina » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:40 pm

Seers have Recharge which is AWESOME...sucks that Kailee can't get one to fix her crap right now, DAMN YOU OFFY! They also have Vision, Blast, Invisibility, Blend, and I would love to have even chamele on my chars! One less alt I needed! Oh they get Combine too!

GK's have Ward, Amulet, Return, Reflect, dmg bonus, DreamQuake...that makes them huge!

Senders have Paralyze, Firestorm, Razorwind, every annoying art in the game and can get it to where it tears up your protective arts! Enfeeblement!

Soulmasters have Restore which everyone gets, Trap Nightmare which they have upped the strength on nightmares for you all (if it was up to me, you wouldn't even get that), Abjure, Healing Aura which I hardly see used. Poison that finally doesn't suck, but doesn't work on bigger mares.

There are other arts, I am not stating them all, however I would think that the Seers are way over gifted than any focus, hell even INVIS is much better. So...give SM's their one art lol. If you need help getting strength, go in game and become friends with a high sphere SM. With all these newlies, they will eventually get it!

I think the worst one is GK's, they could use a bit of loving. It is so boring to level up a GK. I tried to level up one and she only got to 4th sphere lol.
"I have this weird sort of Gemini thing where I can really be empathetic and a loving person. But if you piss me off, I can be one of the meanest, most sadistic people." - Wilhelm Reich
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Raas
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Raas » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:55 pm

I think it would be helpful to understand these arts in a more accurate paradigm.

Forge and recharge might be considered "Supply" arts, but they are not directly tied to essence collection, which is the primary mechanism by which house primes grow, which makes them strategic.

The paradigm for understanding the difference in classification of these arts should look something like this:

1) Tactical = Combat related
2) Supply = Item related
3) Strategic = Essence related

Each focus should have some balance of the three. Currently all four have a decently balanced set of tactical arts (SM's included).

But I wouldn't even focus on the Supply arts until the Strategic/Essence related imbalance has been addressed.
~Ra'as
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Uthanatos
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Uthanatos » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:39 pm

The great forge nerf actually hindered Seers ability to alleviate stress on the prime, since forging is much less prevalent now. Seers recharging forged talismen reduced the amount of PTs needed for new forges. That being said, the increase in strength gain from mares has pulled senders right up alongside soulmasters in terms of acquiring prime strength. Magnum pulls in almost as much strength per hour as Arny or Uthy. Each focus balances differently in different aspects.

GK's excel in both pvp and pve combat and tactical management
Seers have phenomenal PvP capability and a heavy focus on Utility (Recharge, Combine, being able to forge Vision and Chamele)
Senders have good PvP, and excellent PvE capabilities and due to the mare changes are now drawing significant prime strength
Soulmasters have good PvP and relatively poor PvE capabilities, but excel at strength gain.

Note: PvE here is not referring to lesser mares, but Datoken and Darkmares.

In summary, each focus has their own strengths and weaknesses. The adjustment in mare strength has given EVERYONE the ability to make a difference in the house prime, rather than just Soulmasters. I don't think "balancing" the foci is necessary or wise. When everybody is special, then no one is.
“Sometimes it isn't easy to be sane, smart, and responsible. Sometimes it sucks. Sucks wang. Camel wang. But that doesn't turn wrong into right or stupid into smart.”
― Jim Butcher, Cold Days
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Raas
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Raas » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:01 pm

We ran the numbers a while back and no focus is anywhere close to SM essence/hour.

Feel free to post the numbers you guys get but again, we're dealing with a very clear strategic imbalance - Not a tactical or supply one, and the implications of that are very large.

I understand the benefits/drawbacks of the foci, but the entire concept behind the house drains was also intended to manifest with some balance changes to essence collection.

It's something that should be addressed sooner rather than later, as houses grow in population.
~Ra'as
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Juliet
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Juliet » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:14 pm

GK could benefit from being able to PLACE a type of ward on the ground, which when walked on would prevent anybody OTHER THAN the GK from moving for 5-15 seconds depending on plateau.

It wouldn't affect people in their party.

Although if I may speak freely change in general in my opinion isn't the main focus of the team and therefore will not be coming any time soon.

With the addition of steam users, though. The focus from well before steam should have been to make timely improvements, even if you could only allot enough time to do them once a month.

Even the smallest changes, including nerfs, directly relate to the longevity of the game for players.

Yes, you have a small following of Dreamers, but if you consider what it was before steam and what it is now, (I'm assuming 20-30 dreamers active pre steam to MAYBE 70 now), you would understand that just because 1000 people made an account doesn't mean you have a functioning game for this day and age.

That being said, I know that there is a lot of bug fixes and character creation being worked on and I am incredibly grateful for that, as I would like to see UL live for another 20 years. I just can not see that happening without some kind of unique aspect being put into the game.

Yes, GK could use more utility other than Free Action, but at the same time a positive value change to their GK/GateKeeper might even make the trade-off more worth it.
Add another 1-2 dmg per plateau. Make it so that they are the go-to front line fighters that they have always been.

OR

Reevaluate how Dreamsoul works and raise the cap from 99 and depending on the Focus make it go up more than 1 per level.
Considering GK would be the typical tank/warrior of UL they would have higher scaling DS than the rest of the classes.
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Re: Prime Drains

Post by Koi-Wish » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:28 pm

You do know GKs have a damage bonus already right?

Would be silly to give GKs a ground ward that paralyzes, paralyze already exists - and if it paralyzed even with Free Action applied, every FateSender in the history of 20 years would scream foul.

They arent necessarily "supposed" to be the tank - the term tank in relation to MMORPGs came about after UL was originally designed. Damage increase wouldnt make them tanks, that would make them more like Blasters in City of Heroes or Wizards or what have you in any other damage dealing game. If any class had more damage taking abilities it would be the SoulMaster - but most consider them like a Cleric.

In ANY case, we dont want Clerics, Tanks, Mob Control, Healers, Druids or any other "types" that are in other MMORPGs, uniqueness is our specialty. We have Dreamseers, GateKeepers, FateSenders and SoulMasters - they dont fit perfectly into any one category that applies outside of UL.
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